Improve Google CTR For Better Website Click Through Rate – Interview With Keith Evans – 129

Transcript For Improve Google CTR For Better Website Click Through Rate – Interview With Keith Evans – 129;

Caleb Baumgartner: Welcome to Local SEO Tactics, where we bring you tips and tricks to get found online. I am producer Caleb Baumgartner and in this episode, Bob and Jesse interview digital marketing specialist, Keith Evans of UpHero, who provides great insights into the psychology of marketing to clients and so much more. This episode may be longer than average, but it provides fantastic information. Stick around to the end for an exclusive offer you won’t want to miss. Thanks for checking us out and enjoy the show.

Jesse Dolan: Welcome back to Local SEO Tactics, where we bring you tips and tricks to get found in line. I’m your host, Jesse Dolan here with Mr. Bob Brennan again.

Bob Brennan: Hey.

Jesse Dolan: We got a third person on the call here this week. Yep. He’s looking around. This is Mr. Keith Evans here, conversion, click-through rate expert, and SEO pro as well. Thanks for jumping on Keith. We’re glad to have you on our show.

Keith Evans: Hey, guys.

Bob Brennan: Hey.

Keith Evans: What was this show about again? I thought this was going to be talking about the Bachelor and CJ and Stephanie gave the rose. I think I’m on the wrong show.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah, no, this was about SEO. You can still hang out if that’s cool with you but-

Keith Evans: Oh okay, yeah, It’s fine. It’s all right.

Jesse Dolan: That’s-

Keith Evans: My gosh. I’m good. That show is coming up next. I’ll watch that.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah, I know. You’re super busy guy, a lot of interviews. We understand, so we’ll keep this short and sweet for you.

Bob Brennan: This is much sexier than the Bachelor.

Keith Evans: Hey, there’s only one reason a 40 year old man watches any of those fantasy island, gee boy, it’s bikinis, okay? All right? It’s bikinis.

Bob Brennan: It’s not-

Jesse Dolan: You’re not really interested in the storyline you’re saying, like the plot of it all?

Keith Evans: We’re just getting started. We’re going to have a good show today.

Jesse Dolan: I forget what I was listening to, might’ve been an NPR deal or something, but somebody was referring to shows as time merchants, right? They’re looking to buy your time with your entertainment value. Look to what you’re saying, Keith it’s like, sex sells, right? We just tune in to the show to ultimately get to the commercials, to get marketed to. That whole psychology of it is interesting.

Didn’t do this on purpose, but that’s really one of the reasons we wanted to bring you on today for this is, to dive into a lot of psychology that’s really behind some of the marketing, some of the things we do. A lot on this show, we talk about actual local SEO tactics. Things to get found, whatever. In this episode here with you, Keith, we’re going to talk about not so much directly SEO tips, but if you are getting exposure and found how to get more traction, how do you get more clicks? Things like that.

We’re going to dive into all that. Before we do, I am going to introduce Keith officially, read some of his quick bio so you all know why he’s on here, why you should listen to the things that he’s going to spot out here today and drop some good knowledge for us. Before we do that, I do want to mention everybody. If you haven’t yet, go on out, use our free instant SEO audit tool, localseotactics.com, top right corner, yellow button, click it. Punch in your webpage you’re going to audit.

This is page by page. Enter in your page. Enter in your keyword, and it’s going to spit back a PDF report that gives you the good, bad, ugly, and a good punch list on some things you should start doing. If you need SEO help on your website, use that, totally free as many times as you want. Check it out, localseotactics.com. Keith, you are a rockstar in what you do. Let’s let people know a little bit about where you’re coming from, what you’re doing and why you are at that status.

I should say first, we got introduced through a colleague years ago that recommended you, right? That’s always a great piece of edification when you’re recommended by somebody else. I’ve also attended a number of online, for the last couple year’s online seminars and in groups, seeing some of your presentations. Always thought it was just great stuff. Again, it’s a little bit SEO, a little bit more the psychology, which it’s not all just what are the backlinks and the keywords, right?

There’s just so much more to the online marketing. I think you bring a lot of that, the space. We’re not a lot of the people are talking about it. Some of your background here, just reading a little bit off your bio, 20 plus years in web design and marketing, which there’s a lot of people that have been doing this for a couple of years, that don’t quite understand how it evolved, how these things matter to business owners instead of just gaming, Google.

I think that’s super important to mention, having a history that deep into it lets business owners and marketing managers out there know that you know a thing or two, you’re not just designing websites in your mom’s basement, right?

Keith Evans: Don’t bring up 1998, okay?

Jesse Dolan: I’m actually going to get to 1998 here at the end of your bio, because I’ve got a question that I’m super curious about, so just to warn you there. But no, in 2001, like a lot of us, you started getting into SEO, on-page HTML, Google started being a thing and just a lot of traditional marketing started to pivot there. You worked at Dex Media. Was it even Yellow Pages while you were there? Maybe speak to that a little bit about what that was about.

Keith Evans: When the recession hit ’08/’09, I was in marketing as a webmaster and doing sales, but the sales went to crap and so you’re like, “Hey, you’re fired.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, where am I going to get a job at?” But a friend of mine got great benefits, loved helping small businesses, and I’m like, “Okay, I’ll go work there, but I’ll maybe go get my master’s degree.” But I soon found out that I really tapped into my passion of helping small businesses and just loved marketing.

At that time it was Dex Media, then it went to Dex and then it went back to Dex Media, and now they have something called Thryv, and they’re selling software as a service. Yes, I think somewhere, yep, hiding over here, here’s my local book.

Jesse Dolan: What is that?

Keith Evans: It gets thinner and thinner every time. I have to have now 25 of these stacked up in order to get my monitor up this high.

Jesse Dolan: Instead of two or three like back in the day, those nice thick ones. Which is crazy to think about the evolution of marketing. That was a thing. I know Bob when you started your business 25, 26 years ago, placements, naming convention, the psychology here of a Yellow Pages listing. Just translate that and fast forward into today, a few things have changed, right?

Keith Evans: AAA Key and Lock, right?

Jesse Dolan: Right.

Keith Evans: Aardvark HVAC.

Jesse Dolan: Right. I love seeing those today even still. Just drive by AAA storage as an example. You know that business is not new today. That thing’s been around for awhile just by seeing that, so if you know, you know.

Keith Evans: That’s the reality of why people join into your show is, we’re going to give them little competitive advantages that really won’t cost you any money. If you understand the psychology of a human and what’s going to get them to trigger and bite, why did they go with AAA? That’s because in the phone book it was the first thing, AAA and that’s exactly what the human would do. They’d turn to locksmith and they would start calling first. That’s the same thing on Google, guaranteed ads at the top. Then you got the map. Then you got organic. The higher you are, the more likely to get the click.

Jesse Dolan: Yep. No, it’s the more things change the more they say the same, right? In a lot of ways, it’s just a different media, some different tactics. I do want to get back to your bio though. I said I had something about 1998, 1999. I was snooping on your LinkedIn and you worked at Radio Shack.

Keith Evans: Yes.

Jesse Dolan: Tell us how awesome that was. If anybody listening doesn’t know what Radio Shack is, just go Google it. You’ll find some historical pictures. I don’t know if it’s still around. I did a lot of shopping at Radio Shack, working on stupid projects, car audio, things like that. It was an amazing store. I loved it around that time. What did you do to sit there, play with remote control cars all day? How was it like to work there?

Keith Evans: I wish. Oh my gosh. How many remote control cars did kids in the ’80s go through that came from Radio Shack, right?

Jesse Dolan: Right.

Keith Evans: We’re talking like double D batteries. And obviously, “What is the deal you had to give up your phone number just to buy batteries?” May I have your phone number? You’re like, “No.” They were one of the first to really go after the customer service market. Radio Shack at that time I was in the sales, they had a whole AT&T phone department, or maybe it was even Sprint at that time. Cell phones were a big thing. I’ll never forget the Titanic movie came out, and then we were asked to convert people to Sprint.

You know how hard it is, people calling you saying, “Would you like to change?” What we would do is, when they’d come to the counter buying whatever, I would take the, it was like a three pack of the Titanic, right? You got DiCaprio and his lovely girlfriend, you would throw it on the counter and you would say, “Hey, I’ll give you Titanic on DVD if you switch over to Sprint.” We sold so many that they did an audit of our store. They’re like, “What are you guys doing?” It’s all presentation. You hook them on the emotion, “Oh, Leonardo I need to have you in my bedroom,” and bam, they were switching left and right.

Bob Brennan: Cool.

Jesse Dolan: Awesome. I know Bob you’re appreciating that. This isn’t just like SEO tactics. That’s some hardcore like actual sales type stuff.

Bob Brennan: Well, who doesn’t appreciate Leonardo whatever his name is?

Jesse Dolan: That’s interesting. Again, for all of you younger checkout Radio Shack. It was an amazing store. Gone but not forgotten. All right, I digress though. Let’s get into the actual thing we’re talking about. I think there’s some great tie ins there, by the way. That all does make sense for what we’re talking about here, but CTR is what we’re talking about here. Keith, let’s just start there for everybody that’s listening in again. Marketing managers, business owners, we’ve got 120 some episodes.

We’ve talked a lot about SEO, local SEO, explicitly helping you get found online tactics, strategies, keywords. What is CTR? We’ve never talked about it as a topic here on the show. Let’s just start there at the basic level if you can give everybody the quick nickel tour on that.

Keith Evans: CTR, this industry loves an acronym, especially three letter ones.

Jesse Dolan: Oh yeah.

Keith Evans: Click through rate, and really what it had come from, and it comes out of when you run an ad, especially off of AdWords. Or anytime that your message is appearing to someone, especially if you can track the session or the impression, what are you trying to do? Just even think about the billboard as you’re driving down the highway, they don’t necessarily have a CTR, but they do have some way of saying, “80,000 cars drive by. How many times do people click or call that specific phone number?”

That’s what it’s about, the click through rate. If I see your message, I see your ad, I see you maybe you’re ranking number five on Google, what is the chances that I’m more likely to click on you? If you want, I can even take over the screen. I can show you, we can-

Jesse Dolan: Yeah, got for it.

Keith Evans: … dive deeper into…

Jesse Dolan: Anybody listening on a podcast, this is another one that’s going to be good to jump over to YouTube. Keith’s sharing a screen. He’s going to walk us through some actual examples. We’ll try to talk through them as well, but for sure, this is something where you’re going to get even better value if you switch over to the video, just to let everybody know.

Keith Evans: We are going to talk in descriptions. I’m going to zoom up in here. Let’s just say, you just did a search for bathtub refinishing. Right away you’re going to see your guaranteed ads at the top, and you don’t have a lot of control what you can say in this area. But in the true ad-words area you do. What you really want and going to key in on is, what are these guys saying to get your attention, right? All of those sales buzzwords. One of the first ones we see is called Refinish First.

They put their phone number at the top. They say premium bathtub refinishing, unlimited 10 year warranty. They’re also capitalizing the first letter of each word. Then they have right out of the guns an offer, save up to 75%. Give us a call today, local Idaho company, quick completion. Then you get to see more about their hours and their address as well, which shows you that they’re truly local. What that advertiser wants to do is to get you to click and to convert.
You can actually go into, let me jump over here a second. I’m going to dive into an AdWords account, because this is where most people, if you do any managing, even Facebook or PPC, it’s defined right on the page. This is a denture advertisement. The headline says, “Implant supported dentures sale now open in Boise. Save 15%.” The data over the last two weeks, it had 339 impressions, but 32 times someone clicked directly on that ad. That’s where you calculate a 9.44, and that is the actual CTR.

What’s cool to do on this and why CTR is important is, you then compare it to other ads. This basically says kind of the same thing, but a different headline. It’s targeting the same people. Let me just make sure I don’t put my foot in my mouth. Oh, this one was on implants, correction. Let’s see if we get the other implant ad. Darn it, it’s a bad example.

Jesse Dolan: We’re doing this on the fly, just so everybody knows. This is live.

Keith Evans: Okay, drum roll. Here we go, better example. Here’s a 4% click through rate, where the headline says, “Affordable quality dentures, save 15%.” Targeting the same people during the same time. We change it to affordable quality dentures, only 365. Now the CTR, do you think it went up or down? It went down. That higher price of 365 scared a bit more people. Saving 15%, oh, okay. Then they’re going to be more likely to click. But if you take a little bit closer look here, I’m going to just zoom in. This is just a great example of data directly within AdWords targeting dentures under a general search, and then the same timeline where it didn’t get as many clicks. That is how these-

Jesse Dolan: They’re pretty similar impressions there too Keith, right? Just so everybody knows, that wasn’t where one end was super exposed versus the other, those are pretty level stats-

Keith Evans: Right.

Jesse Dolan: … for the impressions-

Keith Evans: This is the kind of data that experts like me, we want to look at and it really does boil down to the marketing psychology. What are the words I can use to motivate you to click? Well, you don’t even have to spend any money with AdWords and you can still benefit with CTR. For example, if you scroll down the bathtub refinishing, if we just go down into the regular organic results, one of the top finishers, the headline has the city, then the product, mentions a second city, and then it says reglazing in a day. Oh, you can take care of this today, right now. What else? What do you notice within this ad and this information, Jesse that stands apart compared to what else is on the page?

Jesse Dolan: Well, right away, I go through that, they’ve got the stars, the asterisk, if you’ll take a pick, get a quote now. I’m looking for fast action if I’m looking for something online, so that jumps out to me right away.

Keith Evans: By doing that, those are all the tricks that you can do when you put your title. That’s what this is called. This is the blue title. You can control that totally on your website right now. Then you can control your description. Now, we do know Google has been a jerk recently. They’ve been messing with titles and descriptions. However, if you feed the right information in there, especially on what the user is looking for, you’re more likely to get it to appear.

I can just even jump over and open just a brand new document, just to give you an idea of what I do for customers and to help improve that CTR rate. Let’s copy that puppy in there. Whoops, slow down, slow down.

Jesse Dolan: As you’re pacing this in Keith, I’ve got a question for you. People who might be hearing you say Google will rewrite your titles and your descriptions, and you said something. If you see that this is either true or maybe expand on your impression on it, if you do a good job on matching your title and your description with the intent, what you’re going to be found for everything else, would you say Google is only rewriting that stuff when it thinks it knows better than you? If you have good intent and you’re pretty close on it, odds of your stuff sticking versus getting replaced are probably a little higher?

Keith Evans: Yeah, especially… Here’s a little secret squirrel tip for you guys, especially if your title in your H1 are kind of similar. Now, the H1, you can also modify that in the page. Part of one of my solutions I’ll extend to you, you can take advantage of with Jesse is, I’ll help you create an awesome H1. Google sees that connection, right? But this is the other reality. You have to sometimes step back. We in the industry have this love, hate relationship with Google because who are they?

They have all these stacks of information and it’s just a data retrieval machine, but they’re serving you at the end of the day. They really want to say, “Aha, did you really mean bathtub? Did you not mean claw bathtub? Were you talking shower?” That’s why they try to using their technology, outsmart the human and again, give you, this is what they’ll say, give you a better experience. Because at the end of the day, if you as the human, whether you’re on your phone, on your tablet, sitting behind the desktop, you want the best results and the best information and you have to trust Google.

If you start to lose that trust, then you’re going to go do something else. Many people are already now just on Facebook and they say, “Hey, does anyone know a good painter?” What do you see? “Oh yeah, Call Clyde, call Rich.” They’re missing out on those sales opportunities because of trust in delivering the right value to you, the user.

Jesse Dolan: Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

Keith Evans: Here, I just have pulled up… I’ve screened a copy directly off of the SERP, the title and the description for this particular business, Boise Bathtub Refinishing. Just like what Jesse said, there was asterisks just within one, two, three, four, the fifth word in which makes it pop off the page. You can do that. One thing you definitely want to learn from to make your title and description better is actually learn from actual AdWords itself.

You can just go snag this information from the ad, and any of your advertisers and think about this, go search your company in a larger Metro area. That’s where it’s more competitive, and don’t overlook ads that also appear way at the bottom. These companies are spending millions of dollars. Especially miracle method, that’s a franchise. They probably have a pretty good idea what you want. By taking this information, copying it, and then put it off on a document, this is going to allow you then to say, “Okay, what are they doing different to get attention?”

For example, instead of doing the asterisk like in this, you can do parentheses. What does that do? It now looks like it’s a circle. Looks like it’s a button, and you’re more drawn to it. The Boise Refinishing example also uses all caps. Don’t be afraid to use things like a double hyphen. Whoop, that is the wrong button here. An extended hyphen, you can even do an extended hyphen and then you get clever with a greater than and less than. Then you can do it backwards. Oh, I made you look here. That’s the whole idea. You can even get really tricky and you can do something like this, call now and get a free… That’s it.

Jesse Dolan: Cliffhanger.

Keith Evans: What? What am I going to get? I got to click on it, right? Those are the tricks of the trade to make that happen. The other thing you can do too is you can experiment with emojis. Now, I don’t know if you guys know this, so actually I’d have to copy and paste, but one of the most clicked emojis, the one that got the most attention, do you know what it was? I think this study was in 2019. Do you know what it was? Don’t say eggplant. It’s not eggplant.

Jesse Dolan: Well, I don’t know what to say then. That was my only answer.

Bob Brennan: Unicorn, I don’t know.

Keith Evans: Octopus.

Jesse Dolan: Really.

Bob Brennan: Really?

Keith Evans: Yeah. Now, do I trust the data? I don’t know. I read it online. It seemed reasonable. But one of the…

Bob Brennan: That’s because Hydra still exists.

Jesse Dolan: There you go.

Bob Brennan: Hail Hydra.

Keith Evans: Let me grab something over on my other screen and… Or actually screw it. We’ll just have a fun ride here. Show me the heart emoji. I’m not smart enough to know exactly how to type in code, but I can steal stuff all day long, like a good marketing guy. If you put a heart emoji in, bam, that’ll probably stick. Some of my tests indicate that if the emoji is something more on a happy positive thought, or if it’s connected to what you do like a bathtub, or if you have a tow truck for a tower, or if you’re open 24 hours, you’re more likely to get that to stick.

An example for this was, oh, what was it? Long distance moving Boise. I think it was this one. Again, what did you boys and girls learn today? You can learn to get great CTR engagement from ads. Oh, bam. There it is. See that red heart? That draws your eye. It draws your attention. Guess what that costs you? Nothing.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah. In this case, that’s, what is that the fourth natural result I think you had on there? But if I’m scrolling on that page-

Keith Evans: One, two, yeah, number four.

Jesse Dolan: … you’re going to get a disproportionate amount of clicks being in the fourth spot being attractive like that Is the point you’re trying to make here I think so. Then over time, if you are getting all those clicks, Google’s going to see that and start to bump you up as long as everything else is in order in there. I want to go back to something you were doing there. Just to explain it to people if they didn’t catch that, to be able to grab that emoji like you’re saying, if you don’t know, how, “How do I type a heart emoji?” Just do a search for it, find a page with it online, copy paste it right in.

Keith Evans: Here we go slowly. It’s called an emoji right? You can just go to any emoji website and you can just find and copy it or what I had done. I’m real slick, you can right click it or you can copy here. There’s also something called Unicode. Sometimes with Unicode, you could drop it into the HTML. But most of your screen renders will pull the appropriate emoji, especially the more popular ones.

Jesse Dolan: Now, when you’re saying get it to stick, you mean Google not rewriting it, right?

Keith Evans: And that is-

Jesse Dolan: Appropriate.

Keith Evans: Yeah, right. To get it to stick, the best thing you can do is try to grab the emoji that is the most related what you do.

Jesse Dolan: Just to be clear, we’re not saying this is the secret trick, don’t go stuff a bunch of emojis in your titles, right? It has to be relevant. It has to makes sense. I’m going to ask you some questions here, Keith, that maybe will tie it in about knowing your audience. What’s making them happy? What’s making it attractive for them? There has to be an alignment here of using the right text or emoji in your titles and your descriptions here. It’s not just an emoji fest. That’s not the point.

Keith Evans: Right.

Jesse Dolan: Okay. I got a couple of questions for you. Did you want to go any further with your copy and paste?

Keith Evans: No, I think that… Throw out some questions. I could obviously go on and on.

Jesse Dolan: I liked some of the stuff I’ve seen you do before talking about again, knowing your audience and knowing whether be getting into like the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, what’s their pain points, what’s their fear points, what’s their positives?

Keith Evans: You’re right on it here, so I can just pull this up. The reality is, when people are going to be happy with you, then they’re going to be more likely to do business with you. You need to then satisfy what they want. All right, how do you do that? You have to know who that audience is. If you know it’s a female who’s more likely coming to your page, then you got to have the right words to tug on their heartstrings because you know it’s a female, right?

Also going into the human desires, we’ll get to that and then any of those powerful headlines and taglines. This was part of another presentation I gave that really went more in depth into CRO. But again, if you understand your customer’s needs, then help satisfy their search. Especially if you know they’re really into price, what are you going to say? Lowest price, best price, starting at 99, right? You need to know that if you’re going to put that in your title and in your description.

Then you can really go after, well, why are they coming to this page? What do they really want? You can even play with that even on a homepage. Homepage does a lot for a customer’s website, but you still have a general business focus. If you figure out why are they on that page? What do I want them to do? Then you’re going to be more likely to get them to actually do it. Again, that’s all going to start from the first message they see. Even that billboard that’s out on the highway is the first impression they got of you.

What would you want to do? You would want to make sure that the words and the colors, and even if there was a human in that billboard is also on your website, because it’s connected, then they’ll be like, “Oh, that’s right. That is the attorney that I meant to call.”

Jesse Dolan: I like this because I think again, when people are thinking SEO or get more exposure, you think about the on-page stuff or other factors. But I think it’s so often overlooked what actually shows up when people do a Google search, which is to your point, that’s that billboard impression. That’s that quick view. If you’re not attractive on that, as we were showing in your moving company example, if that number four ranked spot, if you’re a number one thinking, “We’re good. I’m in number one spot. Obviously my business is thriving.”

But if the people underneath you just have sexier titles or descriptions and they’re getting the clicks, you’re missing a lot more than you realize your SEO was good, but you just want to be an attractive enough. Digging into the psychology of what words do you use, why do you use them, for me, this is fascinating and I think something that a lot of people listen are probably overlooking right now.

Bob Brennan: Well, it’s the same principle, Jess. It carries over to the GMBs, where you can be in the three pack, in fact, you can be at the top of the three pack, but if you have no reviews or the reviews you have or poor, or they’re-

Jesse Dolan: Yeah, if you sink on the reviews, yeah.

Bob Brennan: … falling the reviews that are very low, it’s not going to matter. They’re going to jump down to a better review count and a better quality review.
Jesse Dolan: Not just the rank.

Bob Brennan: That’s the same principle, is that correct?

Jesse Dolan: I think. Totally.

Keith Evans: It’s very, very hard for the business owner when I ask them what makes you different. They’re going to say, “Well, I have a fair price and it’s affordable and I’m honest. I show up on time,” and I’m thinking to myself, “Well, I sure hope you do, right?”

Jesse Dolan: Right, these are all prerequisites, I assume.

Keith Evans: Right. This was Jake Sprinkler Landscape. What we had done here, I’ll just zoom in a little bit so we get this to pop off the page. Notice how we’re really pulling in the emotion. We’re trying to sell landscaping. Every freaking landscaper does the same thing right? But what is Jake selling here?

Jesse Dolan: Fun.

Keith Evans: Exactly.

Bob Brennan: Yeah. You look at the expression on her face, she’s proud of her landscape. She loves to entertain and he’s selling an event and a reaction that these people have to the landscape.

Jesse Dolan: Yep.

Keith Evans: That is exactly what a professional should do for you, and what you even as a small business owner, need to step outside of yourself and say, “What does my customer really want in the end? Oh yeah, they want dirt moved. They want grass planted. They want sprinklers, but why?” It’s because they want to be outside. With COVID in this recovery, this is exactly what we went after by saying food tastes better. Laughs are longer. Discover your outdoor space.

By talking to this client, he’s like, “We’re the only people who do these three things, sprinklers, edging, and landscaping.” I’m like, “Home run. You did it all in one call.” That is what is going to make him different. Sometimes you really have to think beyond the basics of what’s a fair price and you’re honest, you got good reviews. What does your customer really want? I might even be able to jump into it. We’re having so much fun today. We’re going to jump, oh, here we go. Here we go. We’re going to Jump over here. Why does Coke use friends and polar bears in their advertising?

Jesse Dolan: I guess it shows social or connecting with people, fun. That’s the connotation that speaks to me, I suppose.

Keith Evans: What’s special about bears, right? Oh, they’re cute. They’re cuddly. Real polar bears will rip your head off. But these bears, it’s a family. Even your friends, especially when you’re a teenager, your family, yeah, it could be your mom and dad, but the people that you really love that ties into that experience. Oh, shoot. I don’t know if I had an answer on that. Oh, I guess I had to answer it myself. Yeah. That Google really wants you to focus on the love and community. Now, every time that you are with your friends, you’re then going to be more likely to be like, “I think I need a Coke right now.”

Think about how heavily pushed Coke is when you go to the movies. It’s the popcorn. It’s your mouth is watering. You can taste the salt. The movie popcorn butter, and then your friends and the excitement of the flashes. It brings me back to 1977 and Star Wars, right? That is why Coke focuses on family and love because of those human habits. If I’m having fun, maybe if I wanted to see bikini girls at the pool, I should drink Coors Light, right? Because that’s what some beer companies thinks I should do.

Jesse Dolan: Again, I think this all speaks to the psychology of the marketing. It’s not just the keywords, for the sake of a rank or whatever, but you have to speak to what people want. You can’t just be generic. You have to be attractive really at the end of the day. Whether the cuddly is attractive or the bikinis are attractive, this all depends on your audience and again, speaking towards knowing them, what they’re looking for, what makes them click or makes them choose is as an important factor.

I think you’re really underscoring that you just can’t take that stuff for granted and throw it out there. Keith, if you can take a minute or two for people sitting out there listening saying, “Yeah, this is light bulbs going off. I haven’t done any of this,” how do they maybe get some of that? Do they ask their clients or their customers? You talked about, you can cheat. Look at what people are doing in AdWords themselves. Can you speak for a couple of minutes towards how a business owner might take some action down this road?

Keith Evans: Where and how, and what to do. You’re definitely going to want to probably go to your reviews. What are some of the words that people said in reviews? You may actually even have to just send a survey out? I would personally look at competition because again, the big boys, if they’re spending money and they’re doing certain things, it could work for you, too. My passion is advertising marketing. I love Super Bowl commercials. I love looking at things and try and even digest the psychology of why they do what they do. With that all becomes the results. One thing you can go into, too, is just truly understand, what are your human desires?

Okay. Well, I want comfort. I want convenience. I want… I don’t want to die. I want to live longer. I want to avoid that. People also want to feel special. That’s why you can have a limited time offer and only offered to veterans, or something that makes you unique. People want abundance. I want it all. Why do people go crazy over the toilet paper shortage? That’s a weird psychology effect that when there’s less of something, humans want even more of it. You want that abundance.

Sex appeal, clearly, and pleasure. We want to feel good. We want that massage. I want success. I want to have notoriety. I want to stay healthy, money, et cetera. What many times you may need to do is talk to your sales people, talk to people, even your receptionist, people who are outside of your inner circle to get them to discover what makes you unique or different. At the end of the day, you just may have to hire a consultant like me and say, “I need to be something different. I need to stand apart.” You look at Apple computer. Classic, right?

In the late ’80s, they were “Think Different”. They were trying to work with you, the average consumer, that you didn’t want the boring IBM computer. You wanted something more luxurious, and you want to think different and then get that psychological bond. My greatest advice is focus on some emotional reaction if you can, and that’s why this was just an example with the twin vaults, where here’s mom, she’s happy. She loves to entertain, happy guests, and the headline just ties right in because outside is just more fun. Anyways. No.

Jesse Dolan: We make decisions based off our own emotions, right? Okay, so you had mentioned earlier on, you were showing through the AdWords, you have this many impressions, this many clicks, here’s your click through rate. I think we should let everybody know, if you’re going to make some changes on your website, we’ve talked in previous episodes about Google Search Console. If anybody hasn’t listened to those, just do a search on our page, look at how to set up, how to use Google Search Console.

We have got some basic walkthroughs there, but I think, Keith, correct me if I’m wrong, that’s probably the best spot for them to go if they start changing their website. If they’re not doing AdWords right? If you’re just changing the titles and descriptions in your website, and okay, did this make a difference or not? Obviously, if you’re tracking phone calls or getting form submissions, hopefully you’re seeing some benefit there, but you can go in and you can check page by page. How has the changes I made last month or the month before? And you’re not going to do this tomorrow, give it one day-

Keith Evans: Sure.

Jesse Dolan: … but over time you can see if you are improving your click-through rate. Correct?

Keith Evans: Yeah. One of the only other challenges with just the raw data of Google Search Console is it can sometimes be averaged and it’s taking the old data with the newer data. By getting Google Analytics, or even just a simple tracker, a keyword tracker, you’ll be able to see within a week or two weeks, or however, if the changes you made saw a greater impression. You obviously want more clicks, so your actual clicks would go up on the Google Search Console. You might even see more impressions because now Google says, “Hey, we’re going to show this to more people on that particular search.”

Anytime you make a change, especially off of your title and your description, I would probably wait definitely 10 to 14 days before doing anything else, and be very, very careful that you don’t make any other changes on the page. It’s better to do smaller increments, unless your site is just a bit of a disaster, because this is the other thing that can happen, that Google does to you. Here, let’s just go… we’ll go do another search. This is looking for gutters in Napa.

This is a local city in my suburb, in the Boise market. One, sometimes what Google can do for you is, let’s say this is your company right here. Well, Google might actually test you, meaning you used to be down here, like number three, number four. They moved you to the top because why? Because you were getting clicks and they thought, “Okay, I think we’re satisfying people,” but now guess what happens? People are clicking and then they’re not satisfied. Now, there’s still a lot of debate in the marketing world about, “Well, they’re tracking that? How do they know?”

They have something that is called a bounce rate. You also can have an on time, meaning if I click into this gutter page, if I don’t find, as a consumer, what I want, I’ll be like, “No, this isn’t for me,” and I leave? That’s part of a bounce rate. Sometimes you do have to be careful about the changes you make and how you’re monitoring it, because you might be clickbait out here. “Whoo! Check this out! This is sexy.” Yeah, that’s what I want. Then suddenly they’re like, “Oh, no, that’s not what I want.” Be aware of that, that your message, the first message, and then where are you want them to go, make sure that they are cohesive.

Jesse Dolan: I think that’s a good segue. We hope to have you on for future episodes, and you’re starting to get into their conversion rate optimization. Then, so click through is to go from the Google search to your website. Now, from there, of course you want them to turn into a client or a patron of some sort, which is going to be a whole nother topic, but I think the point you’re speaking towards is this message has to stay consistent. If I’m looking for the happy landscaping solutions, if I hit a page that doesn’t marry that same sentiment or things like that, I’m clicking back out, and then that’s going to just sabotage everything we did there.

These thoughts… and I thought this was a great spot to start on a CTR, these thoughts about that psychology, the specific words and the language used, and the emotions you’re trying to elicit start on the SERP for the click-through rate, you need to carry over to your webpage to convert to a client. Then of course, there’s your future emails, nurturing, a lot of other stuff that should carry the same sentiment, but again, this is just some great psychology mixed into SEO that hopefully a lot of you listen out there. Again, there’s some light bulbs going off. You did mention earlier, Keith, and we’re going to get to this at the end. If people do want to hire a professional, instead of doing this, like Bob, we always talk, there’s free with a headache.

You can take all the stuff Keith’s showing you, and you can spend your own time energy going through this, hopefully get it right. Free with a headache, or there’s headache-free, which is going to cost you some money. Keith’s got an offer that’s going to be exclusive to everybody listening. We’re going to give you a link where you can connect with him, get some CTR, consultation, feedback, and actually templates for your site here. That’s going to be pretty slick. Again, Keith, we hope to have you on in the future to dive more into the psychology of these things that are past just this initial click.

Keith Evans: Really, to me, it’s just marketing, and it’s good quality copywriting. It’s also persuasive copywrite.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah. I like that phrase, yeah.

Keith Evans: It’s using these power words to get you to bite on it. The word “free”, the word “love”, the “get you”. You get it all. Right?

Jesse Dolan: Right.

Keith Evans: One of the reasons why I started with AdWords is this is a place where you can quickly run ads and then test to see the results. It’s there. You’re guaranteed to be rotating at the top of the page. When you start messing with the SERP, “Okay, now I have challenges.” Google’s messing with you, and I’m not sure if this is working or if it’s not working. The whole reason why you would ever spend the extra time on having the right title and the right description, you want them to click, but what do I want them to do? I want them to start here. I want them to click. I want them to go and call me. This is you. This is Jay. You’re in business. That is why you work with experts to try to improve this because you want more calls. You want to increase your business.

Jesse Dolan: Yup. That’s what it is. You’re not just trying to get ranked or get clicks. You’re trying to grow your business at the end of the day. I think that’s a great tie in. I’ve got a couple more questions for you. Again, if people are listening or watching, and the light bulb’s going off, and they’re going to take action maybe for the first time on some of these topics, now let’s fast forward. Let’s say they did that, whether they do it on their own, they engage with you or some other professional, but they’ve done this now as one wave. What is your opinion on how often do you need to look at this? How often do you need to maybe reconnoiter what you are saying and evaluate this? Is this something quarterly, monthly, yearly? What advice would you give to people about staying on top of this going forward, not just a one-shot deal?

Keith Evans: Probably quarterly, and the main thing that I would really try to pay attention to is what is your customer… what your competitor’s advertising? Meaning, have they changed their words and their persuasive language, and you’re losing clicks? Can you make a minor change to your ad, or can you make just a minor change to your information to get more clicks? One thing that people really overlook when you’re making your description is it doesn’t even have to be complete sentences. What does someone want on a bathtub?

I want to make it new again. Well, that’s the first thing we say. You can look at this and say, “Can I make that any shorter? Oh, look at this. It even tells you, if I just take a picture and then send it to them, I’m going to get a quote.” They focus on speed. People want it fast. They want it easy. We give them more information. “Oh, and look at…” Well, actually that’s the modified version, “Can I call now and get it free?” That’s not real. That’s not on the real one, but that’s a tricky way-

Jesse Dolan: It’s still good. It’s still good.

Keith Evans: … to get people’s attention. Things you can do, even like this, that’s two different characters, the letter A and the space. If I just said refinish in day, or is there another way I can say refinish in a day faster and shorter, because every little space counts, and by utilizing… even if I dropped out that period, and if I put in an extension on that, or we’ve drawn the I with asterisk, you really have to monitor… I would even listen to radio and television, and listen to what is being offered, and then always come back and say, can I tweak it? Can I make it better? Can I make it better? But one of the best ways, clearly, is actually with ads because you’re now boldly getting your message in front of them. What did we discover on this denture ad? We discovered that by saying, save 15%, rather than only 365, the other ad got way more clicks.

Jesse Dolan: Right, and I think to your topic earlier about Google, if you’re working on your website, Google can rewrite your titles and descriptions, if they decide to. There’s some mystery as to how, why, when or whatever. AdWords though, to your point here, you’re in complete control. It’s going to be exactly what you say. You can even set it up some AB or even ABC testing. I want these three ads in equal rotation. I want to test these different headlines. This is a great idea. It’s going to cost a little bit of money because you’ve got to run the ad and get some clicks, so be cognizant maybe of what your keyword is and how much the clicks are, but what a great way to test explicit titles and descriptions, and find out what combinations work better quickly, and really within… and you’re in complete control. That’s a great tip.

Keith Evans: I was just doing a search for plumbing because plumbers is very competitive, and so I just wanted to see… We might have to do something more generic. What you want to do at home, as you’re playing along here, find a search that has a lot of ads because you really want to see all kinds of messages, and do not be afraid to go out and search in another location. Okay? Now, you need to understand something. Smart people, like me and Jesse, we might not put your ad there. Well, why is that? Well, that’s because Keith Evans is in Boise right now and a smart marketer knows I don’t want Keith to see my ad.

However, these are great ways to learn from your competitors, and then you just do it better. Even as we go just take a look at this one, which is just a straight plumbing. Now remember, you’re not going to get… Well, you will get your you will get your website address in here, but right away… and this is another thing, too. Let’s take away the bowl because that can throw you off. $50 off plumbing repairs, four words, right in the beginning. Call for service today. Hey, guess what? I know how we can make that better. Call now, and even an exclamation point. Or you can even lead this in with… whoops, not that guy, this guy. “Call now.”

Now, this is where local business, you might be able to, to shorten this and say, “Local plumbers, Denver,” and you could even maybe even do CO. As you notice, we are cutting this down further and further, and further. What does it also allow you to do? It allows you to hide things… I don’t want to say hide, but at the end of your ad, you could say Boulder. You could say Aurora. These are all suburbs. I apologize to any Aurora people. I don’t know how to spell. I work in marketing. You could put some of the other geos that you do. What else do you notice in here that they’re not really saying? You could put in drain cleaning, hot water replace. Just by saying that in just short little keywords, this is what happens. If I search hot water replace… Now, this is a total test. Watch out. Watch out, baby.

What happens is Google is now going to highlight water heater. See how it’s shows Denver down here? Then it says install. Aha. You don’t have to use the word ‘install’. You can just use the word “replace”, but then you can even get smarter and say, “Well, wait a minute. Well, ‘replace’ is seven words, and “install” is also seven words.” Damn it. Can we do it shorter? That’s the tricky way that you quickly get your message because that’s exactly what Google is doing. It’s looking at all of these little bolded words. See this? Todd’s. Todd’s Water Heater Repair. Now, that’s part of Yelp. Well, that’s probably a bad example. This one really was a good example, has their brand, Brothers Plumbing. It then showed Denver, “Water heaters. We install,” right there. Go down a little bit further to Applewood Fix It. This is a little wordy. “Plumber fixing heating.” Okay, well that’s-

Jesse Dolan: Good effort, but…

Keith Evans: … good effort, right. You probably would have been better with a capital P. They could have even said, “We fix.” That might’ve been better. I have a feeling I know what this is from. Do you know? I think I know what that is.

Jesse Dolan: Do tell.

Keith Evans: That is probably from an alt image. Do you want to go test and see? Let’s see how smart Keith is. Every image on your website has alt information. One thing that Google has been doing, has been pulling some of the words from the alt. What I just did, and this is way beyond you guys, but I’m just going to show you how wizardy Keith is. We’re going to go down here… what did it say? Did I copy it? Plumber?

Jesse Dolan: Plumber.

Keith Evans: Oh, winner! Chicken dinner! Right there.

Jesse Dolan: Well, I think this is interestingly. As you’re showing this for everybody, I think people sometimes think when Google rewrites your titles and descriptions, that if they rewrite your description, they’re going to pull this congruent paragraph or a couple sentences you had. No, you’re showing here, they’re just pulling three words out of your alt tag, adding that into a description. They’re almost writing the custom sentences themselves from different bits on your site.

Keith Evans: Dude, that could not have been any better. That was not planned. But that’s when you, as a business owner, like, “Oh, my gosh, these guys know what the hell they’re doing.” Right, yeah, because this is… and I know a little bit more about what’s going on here. What had happened is, you see this paragraph right here? What’s it talking about? Hot water heaters. What is the closest photo? This photo right here. Then it says, “Plumber fixing heating.” Well, this was a semi dumbass SEO who didn’t really describe what the picture was.

He just said, “Plumber fixing heating.” If we actually opened it up, oh” Yeah, he’s doing a little bit more than that, isn’t he? He’s actually fixing the hot water heater. They would be better to do that because now, it would say that on the… is that it? Yeah. It would say that on the actual description, and that’s what you searched, and that’s what you would want to click on. Oh, my gosh. We are solving the world’s problems. Where’s the cigars? Get the brandy. Come on!

Jesse Dolan: Hey, somebody’s got to do it. somebody’s got to do it.

Keith Evans: What else do you think Google knows about this picture?

Jesse Dolan: Are we going into the AI recognition of the water heater is what you’re saying?

Keith Evans: I would say yeah. I think that that’s what’s going on here. Whoa, that was a terrible… that little square right there is very common on hot water heater tanks all across North America. Google knows enough that they probably recognize these graphics and logos. They can say that’s probably a cylinder because of the shading and as a 3D photo. They’re probably guessing that this is a hot water tank. They know that that’s a human. Male or female, hard to say. They can see that he is doing something with a wrench, but even if this said hot water or master router, or some other main brand, that’s another way that that connects to your brand. These are all the slick little ways that me and Jesse rule the world.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah. It’s just the two of us. There’s nobody else that could work for any of this.

Keith Evans: Yes.

Jesse Dolan: I think this was great previous for everybody, too, again, how all of these things make such a difference. It’s not just picking a few keywords, slapping them on a page, or any secret magic trick. It is a lot of little things that add up to get ranked and get the clicks, to get them to convert. Yeah, I think you’re dropping some great nuggets for everybody. Again, I’ll tell everybody, if you’re listening, go back, watch the version on YouTube. Fast forward to certain parts about, you know, whatever. Pretty much this whole time, Keith’s spins sharing his screen, walking through examples about what’s Googled on the screen.

Keith Evans: Yeah. I mean, this is pure live, so anything can happen, but this is the cool thing. Within minutes, we’re figuring this out and that is exactly why… Take a serious look at the offer I’m going to extend you guys because I’m not going to offer it to anyone else. It’s a special lower price. I’m not working out in New York City or Denver, or San Diego. I’m working out of my mom’s basement. I’ll give you a deal, okay?

Jesse Dolan: It’s actually his wife basement, not his moms basement, so everybody knows. No, I think we’ll get to the offer in just a second. Before we do that, I just want to frame this up for everybody. I asked you earlier, and Bob, we ask this question all the time on these things, like how often should I do this? What’s the frequency? The other side, Keith, just for general, this is a local business serving their backyard, your landscapers, your plumbers. This is not for Target or Wal-Mart.

Can you give everybody an idea how much investment they should put into this? Whether that be time investment, actual maybe financial investment, to professionals, tools, staff to do it. Is this something people should expect to drop 50 bucks, $5,000? What’s your opinion on investing into… When we’re talking… not SEO, but the click through, the CRO, we’ll get into later, but just the psychology of these things for your presentation, for your upfront sexiness, what’s your opinion on investing in and getting an ROI on that?

Keith Evans: It’s one of those things that you really… it’s worth it, for sure, especially when you get great value, and it’s always going to be changing though. If you just seem like you’re just too busy, I would say look at Saturday morning, take 60 minutes and really go out and just start looking at your competitors, and look at everything you love what they do. Not really what they don’t. What makes them better? Then it may take a creative person like me to step out and come up with the twin falls sprinkler. Well, I screwed that up. This investment that Jake spent, he only had to spend it one time. Oh, and sure, it might’ve been $500 to get a logo and to get his main benefit statement, and to improve the CRO, but guess what?

He will plant that seed and it’s multiplying, because we don’t really have to dramatically change this a lot, because for one reason, in the landscaping world, there’s not gigantic different changes in landscaping. It’s pretty straight forward, but what we wanted to do with Jake was no, no, no, no. Everyone else is here, Jake is up here. We needed to separate that. Honestly, once you work with a pro, or even, if you just take the few hours and the time, and say, “Okay, I think I’ve figured it out. I think I’ve figured it out,” it’s really going to help really your business easily for a year. There’s no doubt about it.

The more important thing I would look at is, do you have a season to your business? Is there a time where you know you have to have more of a competitive advantage? Weil, then you better sit down and writing down some ideas, and do some research and start figuring it out, because once you get the right message out there, then you just run it all the time. Some of these ads for this particular client, we just do a few tweaks and we let it run. Now, this was a particular sale that the client was running, but he even told me yesterday, he’s like, “I’m going to run that until it stops working.” Work smarter, not harder in these kinds of situations.

Jesse Dolan: Always good advice. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. I think, Keith, I was at a mastermind recently with you and multiple people, I think you yourself, were trying to claim the title of the laziest SEO, the laziest whatever it is. The joke was it’s not being lazy, it’s being smart and efficient right?

Keith Evans: Yes, yeah.

Jesse Dolan: There’s the overall deal. I think that’s always great advice for everybody, is don’t spin your wheels, and recognize when you’re in a spot where you do need professional help. If this could take somebody with knowledge a short amount of time, but it’s taking you multiple weekends, phone a friend. Call in support. Actually a great segue to talk about the offer here that you’re talking about, being generous. Just to reframe for everybody, too, I wanted Keith to come on because of what I’ve learned from him. I’m not a rookie at this, but still, Keith is way out there ahead, especially in the CRO, CTR type space, the psychology. We’ve benefited.

I hope everybody else out there can benefit, too. He’s putting together a package. Keith, you’ve got an exclusive offer for our audience. We talked about this before we came on. Usually $250 or even more, $197, people can opt in for $197. They’re going to get you to do five pages of CTR. Look at their pages. What are they trying to target? What’s the MO? You’ll have to trade some emails and get some context, but then you’ll tell them, here’s the title, here’s the description, here’s the sexy words, here’s what you’ve got to do in these five pages.

We’re not talking about hardcore all the way, CRO and SEO on your website, to be clear with everybody, but if you want Keith to jump in, work on five of your pages on your website, probably like your homepage and some of your primary service pages, to do some of this analysis, what should you do? What should you change, and how can you get more clicks? $197, which is a fantastic deal, even if you just break it down per hour. I don’t know how you’re going to make any money doing this, but it’s a great deal for everybody. Go to local-

Keith Evans: Yeah. You see how fast I am. Now, using the bedroom, I try to slow down. At least my wife says so. Well, it’s a balance.

Jesse Dolan: Time is money in that regard there.

Keith Evans: Yeah. I’m fast at some things, slower at other things.

Jesse Dolan: Where it counts, where it counts. Go on out. If you want to connect with Keith, take advantage of this offer for $197, CTR on five pages of your website. Just for our audience, go to localseotactics.com/ctroffer, all one word. What the hell? If you put a hyphen in there, we’ll make sure that works for you, too, whatever. You can’t screw this up. Localseotactics.com/ctroffer. Fill out the quick form. We just want to know your name, email, your website. Keith will get in touch with you to vet out the pages that you want and give you some context where he’s going to need to make this smooth and knock your socks off with some great CTR, and start getting you more business. Anything you want to add on that, Keith, what they should expect?

Keith Evans: No. The reality is I’m definitely going to spend more than an hour with you, or at least in my time, and I’m going to give you the biggest bang for the buck. If I don’t see a lot of things that I can improve, we’ll look at some other solutions, or if you need even help with a benefit statement, or a main headline, we have to look at that, because remember, what was this entire show about? Click through rate. We’re trying to entice people, but you must have something that’s enticing for them to want to click. That’s exactly what I’ll do. We’ll pull that out of you for sure.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah. No, I think anybody, like I said, if you’ve had these light bulb moments in this episode, and there’s some things that you’re thinking of here, for a $197, to engage with Keith on this and start the process. I think it’s going to be spectacular for you. Thanks for jumping on, Keith. If you can stick around, I’m going to read our review. Every episode, we read a review that people send in for the podcast, whether it’s off our Facebook, GMB, whatever it is, Apple Podcasts. Just to give shout outs to people and let everybody know that we do read and receive this feedback. We love getting reviews from everybody. It let’s just know we’re doing a good job.

Keith Evans: Whoo!

Jesse Dolan: Yes, exactly. If you’re out there listening and you haven’t left us a review, and if you think we’re bringing good value having people like Keith on to really get your brain thinking, go on out to localseotactics.com, go down to the bottom, click the link for reviews. We’ve got buttons for Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Facebook, GMB, whatever it is. We’ll take your review wherever you want to throw it at us. If you do that, we’re going to give you a shout out on the show and read it. We’ve got one here. This episode from Simon.

It says, “I love your podcasts. I have gained so much from them. Thank you. I’d love to hear your thoughts on Google’s dictionary of how it brings up the local pack when it believes to have identified the searches in 10 for the local business. Merry Christmas. Simon.” All right, Simon, we’ve been sitting on your review for a while, because this is September and you said Merry Christmas, so appreciate that. Sorry it took so long to get to it here. You actually bring up a great question. Maybe we’ll address that in a future episode here.

It’s a pretty good topic, but aside from that, appreciate you leaving the review, Simon. We do read these, we do get them and it does make our heart nice and warm. Keith, before we sign off, I should have asked you, if people want to get ahold of you outside of the exclusive offer, I know they can find you on UpHero.

Keith Evans: Yeah, my brand is the uphero.net. It’s the only UpHero. That’s why I came up with such a silly name. It’s over on this side. You can email me, call me. I actually answer the phone, talk to people. I don’t mind talking to salespeople because I can actually learn from them. Maybe they actually have something to sell me, but primarily what I do is I build websites for customers. I really heavily focus on ranking them into the map and that SEO off the organic, and I just try to make it affordable. That’s what people want.

Jesse Dolan: Right. No, great insights and good stuff. Appreciate you coming on and sharing with everybody, and looking forward to future episodes. If people have questions about this episode or future stuff with Keith, to pick his brain, go on with the localseotactics.com, scroll to down the bottom and click the button for questions. Just send it on and, like I said, we’re going to try to get Keith on down the road and we’ll ask him whatever questions you have, and relay and dig into some more of this. This is going to be great stuff for everybody. Bob, thanks for jumping in on this one, hanging out. Hopefully we’ve both learned some stuff from Keith that we can-

Bob Brennan: Oh yeah.

Jesse Dolan: … take action on as well. Keith, again, thanks for your time jumping on, and looking forward to working with you more in the future. Appreciate it.

Keith Evans: Yeah. Thank you.

Bob Brennan: Thank you.

Keith Evans: Thanks guys. Nice meeting you, Bob.

Bob Brennan: We’ll see you.
Jesse Dolan: All right, everybody. We’ll catch you in the next episode. Take care.