How Google Works vs How People Think it Works

Using PageOptimizer Pro To Improve Your SEO With On Page Analysis and Recommendations

Kyle Roof of PageOptimizer Pro joins us for an interview, talking about improving your SEO with PageOptimizer Pro, and many other things!  Kyle is an amazing SEO industry expert, and shares many valuable nuggets of information that will help you understand Google, and how to apply that understanding to develop and execute your SEO properly.  We talk about how Google actually works, versus how you may think Google works, and how you can use that knowledge to your benefit.  This episode is packed with great information, give it a listen!

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What You’ll Learn
  • Kyle cracked the Google algorithm and was able to rank a website using lorem ipsum placeholder text
  • Google is an algorithm and does not read web pages in the same way a human reads them
  • Pay attention to what Google “likes” by checking out your top ranking competitors and see what they are doing
  • Google is looking for certain signals and features on a web page, to understand what the page is about
  • PageOptimizer Pro is a tool that can help you analyze the top competitors and what Google seems to be favoring for page content and signals
  • Whether you are an experienced SEO or just learning, POP can help you improve your rankings
  • Keyword rank tracking is important, but not the best gauge for how effective your SEO is
  • Monitor impressions in Google Search Console and organic traffic in Google Analytics for SEO trends

Here is the Transcript for Episode 70 Interview With Kyle Roof of PageOptimizer Pro – How Google Works vs  How People Think Google Works ; 

Jesse Dolan: Welcome back to Local SEO Tactics where we bring you tips and tricks to get found online, join Bob Brennan again here this week, I should say too and all the excitement, I’m your host Jesse Dolan. I’ve got to put that liner in there.

Bob’s back with us this week here, not doing a solo episode. And we also have a great interview with Mr. Kyle Roof here. So this is going to be a fun show. We’re going to talk about some real cool tool that Kyle has called PageOptimizer Pro to help you out with your websites and your optimization. Before we get into that, as always, I got to mention our free instant SEO audit, which we we’re just teasing Kyle about. He was kind of checking that out on the website.

Kyle Roof:  I downloaded it, it’s amazing.

Jesse Dolan: Yep, it’s a handy tool. And as you all know, if you’ve heard the show before, you can use it on any page if you want to optimize or get a report on optimizing your website, if you want to run it against a competitor, to kind of see how they’re attacking a certain page to reverse engineer that. Whatever you want, you can use it as many times as you want, totally free, LocalSEOTactics.com. Click on the yellow button and run your audit. But without further ado, let’s get to the star of the show here, Mr. Kyle Roof, thanks for joining us and coming on here. Appreciate that.

Kyle Roof: Many thanks for having me, happy to be here.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah. And you are on the other side of the world right now in Bangkok, Thailand, correct?

Kyle Roof: I’m in Thailand, I’m actually in Chiang Mai, which is a sleepy little town in the north. It’s all the way up, like all the way up.

Jesse Dolan: Wow. We are undergoing news briefings by the minute here. So you’re well removed from that like we were just talking. And this is the morning after election night too just for time stamping the whole thing for everybody. So yeah, it’s going to get interesting. But let’s get into the actual show at hand here. So if you all out there haven’t heard of Kyle Roof before, probably pause this and just Google him. He is a wizard in SEO right now, probably one of the top people in the SEO game. Kyle’s the main man, founder and brains behind SEO cornerstone’s like PageOptimizer Pro, which we’re going to talk about. High Voltage SEO agency, which is Kyle’s agency. Internet Marketing Gold, which is a free and membership’s site for all kinds of great SEO stuff. And the ever popular YouTube episode or page of SEO Fight Club, which is awesome. If anybody hasn’t checked that out, go check that out. So all kinds of SEO stuff, speaking at conferences. I mean, Kyle, you’re kind of a big deal if you didn’t know that yet.

Kyle Roof: I appreciate you saying that. I’m glad those words came out of your mouth and not mine. I was just going say, I was reminded when you were talking about conferences, when you’re leading the build up on get up on stage, I start killing myself about five minutes before. And where I’m just like, you know what? You could be in the audience right now. Everyone wants to listen to Kyle, don’t they Kyle? I just give myself all kinds of grief about just that sort of thing, oh, you think you’re such a big deal.

Jesse Dolan: So do you ever look out in the audience and just kind of think, do they even care that I’m up here talking? And you pick out people that are engaged, some people looking at their phone and just does that affect you when you’re doing that?

Kyle Roof: I’ve learned that you can’t look at individual people because you will… I mean, everyone’s attention span is only so long. So even if somebody’s really wanted to see you and they’re super engaged, there will be a chance where they’re just not. And you will be disappointed, you actually feel it on stage. So don’t give yourself that. So what I try to do is I try to look at the heads, the tops of people’s heads, and I try to do a figure eight through the room. So I’ll try to find different points where I can do a figure eight. And then to the audience perspective, it looks like I’m looking at them because you can’t really tell perspective wise. But then from my perspective, I’m also then sifting through and then I’m also not setting myself up for disaster if it’s just really fallen flat.

Jesse Dolan: No, that is an art into itself, right? Just the stage presence and making sure you’re still communicating and not being a big blundering buffoon up there like I probably would be.

Kyle Roof: No, not at all.

Jesse Dolan: And you’re getting paid to be up there too, right? So there’s always that confidence of somebody wanted me here and has paid me to be here. So even if people aren’t paying attention, keep pushing on and so.

Kyle Roof: Yeah but also it doesn’t hurt the ego. I’m not going to lie to you.

Jesse Dolan: And the groupies.

Kyle Roof: I’m doing it for the people. I actually don’t do it because I think everyone wants to hear what I have to say.

Jesse Dolan: Nice. So we want to talk about a few things with you today, Kyle. Obviously, PageOptimizer Pro, and I feel like the conversation’s going to weave in and out of that. So we’ll circle back to that in a second, if you don’t mind. But first, there’s two other topics that we kind of slightly have to talk about. One is just to tease everybody how Google really works versus how people might think that it works. And I’d really like to dig into that, kind of tea some of that out. Because I think especially in the local SEO space, if you’re sitting there as a business owner wanting to get more exposure in Google, that’s really a big thing to kind of peel away the layers on this.

How does that work? And I think we can start, though, with you’re also kind of famous for a Lorem ipsum experiments/test/contest that you engage with, which I’d like to kick that off if you maybe can kind of explain that to people, because I think that helps set the stage for there’s no secret recipe for Google, a one size fits all. It’s knowing about where to drop the right things in the right spots for what Google’s looking for, right? And you were able to bring a page with basically mainly Latin on page that was nonsense as far as the actual topic, right?

Kyle Roof: That’s right. So Lorem Ipsum is the filler text if you’ve ever built a website and your web designer will first send you a page, it’ll have Lorem ipsum. So it looks like words, but it’s fake Latin. So it’s Latin, but it’s not even real Latin. It’s just words strung together so that it gives an appearance of this is what text can look like. And getting to your point about how Google works, that’s why I did this. So there was a competition two years ago in a public SEO group and Facebook, SEO Signals Lab. I think they’ve got 60 thousand people. And it was open to everybody in the group. It was the idea, 27 professionals or people that I think thought that they knew what they were doing, got into it. And the idea was to rank for the term Rhinoplasty Plano.

So Rhinoplasty is a nose job and Plano is a town just outside of Dallas. And you were given 30 days so it had to be a brand new domain. So this is a sprint which is not overly realistic in SEO. But the idea was you have 30 days, you can pretty much do whatever you want. And at the end of 30 days, the site that is ranking the highest for the term wins. At the end of the 30 days, I officially took fifth in the competition. And then about two weeks later, my site hit page one for the term. And then in about two weeks after that, I was number one organically and I was also number one in the maps. And that’s when people really start to lose their minds. And I hadn’t really done anything. I hadn’t done anything to the site since the test or the competition was over, just there you go.

But the site was completely written in Lorem ipsum. And what I did because I did the math that Google wanted to see for the term Rhinoplasty, Plano. So the exact keyword, its variations, contextual terms. And then on very specific places on a page where Google is looking for these things. I copied and pasted them into the Lorem ipsum. So when you read the page it’d be like blah, blah, blah, blah, nose job, blah, blah, blah, blah, Plano, blah, blah, Texas, that kind of stuff.

So those terms were in there and they were in very specific areas. And I did it to show that Google can’t read. People want to think that Google can read like a human can read and Google is remarkable, it’s one of the most, if not the most powerful thing ever created and what it can do. But it is not a human being. It’s an algorithm. And as such, you can satisfy an algorithm by giving it the math that it wants. That’s the whole point. So it’s not going to read as a human being can read. It’s not going to see that this is gibberish. It’s looking for those very specific terms and those very specific places a certain amount of times. And that’s what I gave Google for the site and Google responded.

People might say that I wrote nonsense and I would actually disagree. I wrote the most relevant page that Google’s ever seen for that material.

Jesse Dolan:  And Google does, not for human beings and for Google.

Kyle Roof:  For what the algorithm needed, this was the most relevant page. A couple of fun facts, follow ups to this story. So a few months later, in November, Search Engine Journal wrote an article about this. And the guy that wrote it, I barely call him a journalist, but he wrote it as though he did some investigative thing and he found this what’s going on.

And he published the guy who won the competition officially and also myself and he put my name and my site in the article. Didn’t call me for a quote, which wouldn’t have been difficult because he could find me on Facebook. But about six hours later, Google de-indexed the site. Which is fair play, I guess. But that night, from about 1:15 AM to 1:27 AM Google de-indexed 20 of my test sites, sites that had nothing to do with the competition site. They weren’t linking to each other at all and sites that had nothing to do with each other. They were on different hosts-

Jesse Dolan:  Interesting.

Kyle Roof:   … some with who is protection, some without, all just different types of things. A couple of them linked to each other, but not too much just on stuff that I test. So these are all the sites that I use just in testings. So that happened and that was not very fun at the time, but what it occurred to me was that one, some poor dude’s job for a couple of days in Mountain View was me, which was kind of funny. This guy is like I have a PhD from Stanford.

Jesse Dolan:  Now I’m trying to find this guy’s websites here.

Kyle Roof: But it completely validated everything that I was saying. If I had gotten lucky or if I was talking nonsense, Google would have rolled their eyes and moved on. But I showed how the algorithm worked. And that’s, I think, where I really got upset. Roger Monty, the guy that wrote the article, said that I did this to make fun of Google, and that couldn’t be further from the truth. I did it to make fun of people like Roger Monty who have been telling people for a long time that content is king and all you have to do is write good content and you do have to write good content. You do have to have content that will convert the people, will like. But that’s not what ranking is about. Ranking is about satisfying the algorithm. And that was the point that I was trying to make. And I think that’s the point that I did make.

One more piece of follow up is that so this year I’m releasing a course on white hat SEO, what is white hat? And as I was going through the guidelines again, I found a rule that I hadn’t seen before. And in the automated text area it says the first thing is, what is against the guidelines is text that does not make any sense to the reader, but contains keywords. And I was like, well, when did that rule go into effect? So I put the URL into the Wayback Machine and you can see two dates. One is in February of 2018 and one is about I think it’s 10 days, seven days after the competition results were published and people could see my site. If you go back to the one in February, that rule is not there. If you go to the one right after the competition, that rule has appeared. So what it looks like Google did is they saw what I did, they changed the rules, they waited a little bit of time and then they punished me for the brand new rule.

Jesse Dolan:  It’s the Kyle amendment.

Kyle Roof:  So I honestly, I don’t know anybody else I think that’s had a rule written about them, which I think is fantastic. The other thing, when you think about it, is it Google’s job to help you to write a better website, better content? It can’t be. Their job isn’t, and that’s not within the guidelines of this… so it’s my fault if I write words that people don’t understand, right?

Jesse Dolan:  Sure.

Kyle Roof:  That’s me as the content creator. So they just really made up this rule just for this little specific situation. And they came across I really, I think, kind of pissed them off a lot.

Jesse Dolan:  I can imagine, right? I mean, the Google algorithm and the recipe for Coke, I mean, things that nobody really understands. It’s a lot of mystery, or at least they guard it and if somebody kind of catches on to the secret…

Kyle Roof:  Some jerk comes along and just does this.

Jesse Dolan:  I’m kind of wondering if we’re safe talking here. Maybe we should kind of keep the topics pretty guarded, I don’t know.

Kyle Roof: Maybe we should.

Jesse Dolan: Guilt by association, right? But no, I think that really does lay out the thing. Like you said, good content is key for some areas, but ranking is really… it’s a way to generate traffic, right? You get people on your page, then you want to convert them with good content and user interface stuff, whatever. But really, first thing’s first is just your rank in Google. And kind of I try to explain to people is you’re doing this for Google. And if you can elaborate here as we get into again, how does Google work versus what everybody think? It’s not the same as a human being. They’re looking for what was your intent? And they’re trying to guess a lot now as they get more sophisticated, right? What your intent is based on all these different factors.

So if you could just start with somebody again, if there’s somebody listening here, a marketer or a business owner for their local service shop, they’re saying God where do I start? You start by looking at some of the competitors on Google. Obviously, we’ve talked about using a program like Pop, which is going to turbo charge all of this conversation at the end here. But where do they start if they want to say, what should I do to get better rankings here?

Kyle Roof: Sure. To your point, I think every business owner knows that content isn’t King, because I don’t know how many business owners that I’ve spoken to that say, I’ve written the best page. I know it, I’ve looked at my competitor pages, I know this is better. I also know my product is better. I also know my service is better. They know that they are better than their competitors, but they’re not getting acknowledged in Google. So I think business owners instinctively know that it’s not just about writing content is what will equate to rank. Because Google can’t walk to your store and see that you’re a real place. There signals, I think you recently had an episode on citations on your map. Google has to look for those things to see if you’re an actual legitimate business or not, because we can’t go to your store front and be like oh, yeah, these guys are real.

There are signals that Google has to look for. So kind of keeping that. In mind, where is Google going to look for this information and what can they do or what can we do to kind of figure that out? And really what’s comforting is that the secret is hiding in plain sight. Google shows you the sites that it likes. It shows you the top 10, it doesn’t hide the top 10. You’d have to click extra for it, those are the sites that Google currently likes for your particular term.

Jesse Dolan:  They’re right at the top.

Kyle Roof:  Right, they’re right there. And it comes down to liking their on page, they’re off page or a combination of the two, and that’s really it. And then when you remember that Google isn’t reading, but Google is counting that it’s math, then you know that if you look at very specific areas and how your competitors have done certain things, you can start to see a pattern for what you need to do for your page for this particular keyword or these concepts. So Google is giving you the roadmap. It’s sitting there. Now, your competitors probably haven’t done everything correctly. And that’s where some tools and some concepts actually go a little off. Is that what happens if they’ve all done it wrong? Could you have a wrong road map? But you can look at the general guidelines of what Google is giving you with that search, and then you can apply best practices on top of that. And then you’re going to end up with a page that can probably rank pretty well for just about any term that you want to go after.

Jesse Dolan:  I want to get your opinion on this, too, will tell customers, because, again, most of the people we work with are very local. We’re up in Minnesota so somebody may be focused on the Minneapolis area as a market. And to your point of sometimes the results for your specific niche may be a little tainted in having some bad results and some bad commonality between everybody. We always say go out and see what’s happening in Chicago, see what’s happening in St. Louis, other markets, too. Don’t just be keyed in on your own backyard, because if it’s a similar product or service search in a different market, there’s going to be different competitors and kind of widening that purview of all these things you’re taking into account. You may find something totally different in Chicago, which is much bigger than Minneapolis as well, right? If somebody’s dominating Chicago and you can key in on maybe a little trick or two that they did you should be able to crush at Minneapolis if nobody else is doing it or if some of those things match up for those signals.

Kyle Roof: Totally agree. The other thing, too, is I don’t understand why people don’t just look at the main competitor and just basically copy what they’re doing. You can’t plagiarize their words but look at their site structure. Why isn’t your site structured like theirs? When you go across these brands that you could emulate, you don’t want to reinvent the wheel. You can’t out trick Google. You can’t be like, oh, mine is so unique that Google is going to love it. No, Google’s not looking for uniqueness, Google is looking for something that it understands. It has to understand what you’re talking about, it has to then like it.

And those are the two things understanding it so it can index it and then liking it so it can rank it. And look at the people that are crushing it. I always look at, it’s like, should we do this or that? Oh, I don’t know. Let’s go check out what Adidas is doing on their website, because they pay their SEOs millions upon millions of dollars. Let’s go look at Wells Fargo, if you’re in the fintech space, let’s look at some of these sites that they clearly are… and it doesn’t mean they’re doing it right 100% of the time, but they might be on to something. It’s a good idea to check out those because, I mean, they have the money to experiment, just give it a go. And they’ve got the teams in place and they probably are employing the people that you’re listening to on podcasts and stuff like that.

You’ll listen to a lot of mainstream podcasts as well. Those people talking, they do actually consult for these companies. See what they’ve actually put into play. And you can get a lot of great information just by looking at what’s ranking, what’s out there.

Jesse Dolan: I think that’s a great tip. That’s something. Bob, you don’t know this Kyle, but Bob and I have been business partners for over twenty years before SEO and Google. We didn’t like traditional marketing. And even back then, we would leverage at the same stuff. We’re just a little brick and mortar company in the Twin Cities. And, yeah, how should we make a new brochure or a sales slick or a flier? What did Nike do or what did these brands that you said have the… they’ve done all the psychology, they’ve done the AB testing, they’ve got the marketing budget, look at how they’re presenting or comparing and contrasting things and try to bootstrap your own version of that. The same is true for SEO and for web rankings. You’re absolutely right.

Kyle Roof:  I mean, do you think they did those images and those colors accidentally? They have focus groups, they have the money for focus groups, just use their focus groups.

Jesse Dolan: Very much on purpose. And kind of like you’re saying, if you can marry people who have done the testing and the resources and the ranking in Google, there’s probably some things that you can learn if you just take the time to kind of study it. And I’d like to jump over to PageOptimizer Pro, right? Which is kind of the A topic here. I’ve mentioned it in a couple episodes here, kind of teasing people about it. It’s something that we use and really helps. I don’t know if you want to say shortcut, because there’s a lot of work that can be involved with it. But it maybe takes some of the guesswork out, if you can’t read the tea leaves of the SERP and try to decipher what you’re saying, these top 10 sites and these are the features. I’m going to do it, just a very simple drill down but that PageOptimizer Pro kind of gives you that, right? Here’s what they have in common, here’s how that compares to yours and it gives you these recommendations.

Kyle Roof:  That’s right. So once when I was doing my testing and I realized oh, this is kind of how the game is played. There signals, there places on the page that Google’s looking for things and we can count the words that are in there. We can count specific words too, the exact keyword that we want, variations of that keyword and then contextual terms, we can count all those things. And then we can see what’s going on in each area, so the original version of Pop, which still exists, gives you a signals by signals. So the signals that we know move the needle, these are the ones you should be looking at, what we’ve done is we’ve gone through and done all the counts for you.

Recently, we’ve done kind of an algorithm on top of our algorithm, where we then make decisions for you, because even in that scenario you still do have to make some judgment calls. You as the SEO need to decide which terms you’re actually using. How you might be applying them, and I realize that especially business owners they get the concept, but even then it’s hard to make those judgment calls. What I realized is we could actually go one step further and put math on top of math, essentially, and say, okay, we’ll make those decisions for you, now do this. And so we’ve broken it up, the page into three areas, your title, your subheadings, so your H2s and H3s and then the main content.

And we basically have now just used these words, this many times in this range, in each of these sections. And what we’re finding is that just following even that, so even if you’re not going line by line, but getting kind of each of those areas, which are very important areas on your page, getting those dialed in does a lot of the heavy lifting. You can call it an 80-20 rule, but it’s not even. It’s more effective than that, it’s more a 90-10 kind of a situation.

Jesse Dolan: Well, it’s been cool, we’ve been using Pop for probably a couple of years now, at least 18 months. And I really seen it evolve as of recently with making this a lot easier. The, I think you’re calling it the content brief, some things like that to really take more the guesswork out of it. So people we should say too, you guys have been generous enough. If anybody goes out, and we’ll put a link in the show notes here to get over to pop to sign up. But if you use the promo code Local SEO Tactics, all one word, they’re going to get 15% off, which is awesome. And it’s not that expensive anyways too, right?

Everybody should definitely check it out, you’re going to love this tool. Put it in your arsenal, it’s in ours. It’s on our resources page too, we’re very frontal about it. But there is, if I have the right words here, is it express or a light version versus kind of the comprehensive run? If somebody’s jumping in for the first time right now, again, as that maybe marketer for their company or a business owner, you think they should go kind of that express light route or should they just dive right in?

Kyle Roof:  Yeah, if you go express, what happens is Pop will make the decisions for you on a few things, such as which competitors to use. Because obviously the secret is hiding in plain sight and it’s based on those competitors, but there are some competitors you want to remove. These are mainly Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest, those types of social media sites, they’re not there because of their on page. Well, if you do the express Pop, it will remove those automatically for you. A handful of others, but Pop is also matured in the algorithm that we have that we can handle about any type of site and look to see if it’s an outlier. So sometimes you might have a SERP that’s got an Amazon page, now should we include that or should we not?

We’re now confident enough with what we’re doing that I would include it because we can look, Pop can actually look… is breaking down the page into a lot of different things. But it can find things, is like this probably isn’t helping their on age, but this actually probably is and we can actually pull out those parts. And then we can reinforce that then in the recommendations that are provided. So if you go to express, Pop’s making all those calls for you. You don’t have to worry about it.

If you get in and realize, you know what, I do you want to tinker with the competitive list, I do want to look at some of those terms that Pop is using to evaluate the pages against then you can immediately switch to full. And get over there and then you can… it’s completely customizable. So what we’re trying to have the set up is that if you are completely brand new to SEO, we’re getting pretty close to make it that you can do it with almost intuitively. That’s the hardest thing is trying to get it and that’s what we’re really trying to do, is we’re trying to get it so that somebody who’s a business owner, somebody who’s just a content writer, they’re not an SEO but they know they need SEO content, we’re trying to get it so that they can handle it.

But then also people like yourselves that are advanced SEOs, you’ve been doing it a long time, kind of we then have an advanced strategy section that if you want to go in and you want to make all those judgment calls, we can do that. And then we also have it so that for the super advanced, not every situation is the same, and we need to evaluate this, that. We can actually help you set up parameters for different, we need to go super conservative here. This client can’t have any kind of drops, they can’t have anything going on, we have conservative mode. And then you’re going to get the most conservative range that’s there. But then you might be on the other extreme, you know what, we need to rank yesterday, it doesn’t matter. Black Friday is tomorrow, who cares about today? And then we show you the hyper aggressive, what you could probably go up to. And obviously that’s risky, but if it doesn’t matter.

So then so we give those parameters as well. So we have it boiled down to where it’s basically just do this or it can be as customized as you need it to be for your particular situation.

Jesse Dolan:   And when I’ve kind of looked at that, I almost… my mind goes to the same as stock investing, right? If you’re young, you can be aggressive, but if maybe a little bit of conservative and like you’re saying, you can kind of pick what kind of recommendations you want back. You want to go balls to the wall, crazy like you’re saying, or do you want to play it a little more safe. Quick question for you on that express mode, like you’re saying, it takes out Facebook and some of those social sites. What about Yelp or some of these other directory or citation type places, are those people we want to be accounting for, for ranking or do we dismiss them like a Facebook?

Kyle Roof: Yelp is a tough call because Yelp is really embedded with Google. And so you have to wonder how much they are turning a knob for Yelp. But as we were saying before, with the math we have set up, I’m okay with Yelp. If you’re unsure though, I get that one. I have no qualms if somebody takes it out. But when it comes to the math involved, we can handle Yelp. It won’t skew your results to the point that you like, oh, wow, we’re getting these crazy numbers, we handle that so Yelp isn’t an issue. But I could see taking that one out. The rest, though, and even Amazon, I don’t know how much Google’s really helping them, I think just they’re a behemoth. And that’s probably what’s doing it for them.

But if you want to take that, I mean, you can… again, you as the SEO you can make these calls, right? If you’re the kind person like, I don’t know, just going to express, we’ll take care of it. But if you have strong opinions about those sites, yeah, you can dial it in and do it exactly how you want it. And then the recommendations will come back how you want them to be.

Jesse Dolan: And not to get too deep into the weeds for everybody, but maybe a real quick nickle tour here for kind of how it works. You’ve alluded to some of it but basically, you’re plugging in your page, right? This is a page by page tool, right, for the on page SEO, it’s not for your whole site in general.

Kyle Roof: Right, it’s not like an audit tool that’s going to say you’ve got these broken links and all that, what we’re trying to do is help you rank one page and people that are newer to SEO, a concept that might be missed, is that really one key word that you want to win is one page, one main keyword. So your perfect customer is at the computer and they’re typing in terms and that’s the thing that you need, that’s your primary keyword. You will win secondary keywords, keywords that are related to that primary just by optimizing for the primary. So for each main concept that you’re going after, maybe that’s a product or a service in your local space, you need a page for that. And so what you do is that’s the page you put into Pop with your primary keyword that are going to try to help you rank for that.

Jesse Dolan: And then you’ll have a chance, like you said, if you go full or express. If you go full, you get a chance to pick your competitors that you want to kind of grade against or optimize against and then it also gives you a chance to pick or modify the related keywords, like you’re saying, right? So you’ve got your main keyword, then it’s going to return to you, here’s some keywords we think are related and you can add or delete from that list, too, before you kind of run the final deal. And it gives you a pretty darn comprehensive report back or list of recommendations back, like you’re saying. And maybe if everybody, I hope we’re not making a sound it’s a confusing tool, it’s extremely powerful. And customizable, like you said, for what you want to do with it.

And if we get some feedback from everybody out there, if we need to maybe do more of a tutorial, or kind of a walk through, we’d be happy to do that. But I just want to make sure everybody knows and you’re kind of saying, it Kyle, if you just want to push some stuff in, take five minutes to run a page, boom, it’s going to give you a punch list of some things you should do. If you really want to fine tune it and spend a half hour tweaking this thing, you can go nuts on that, too. It really is for everybody page by page.

Kyle Roof: Exactly, that’s what we’re trying to do. Is that everybody can use this, so if you’re from beginning, I know nothing about SEO. I just know my site needs to be SEO’d to I know what I’m doing and I can handle it. One other thing that I want to mention is that you mentioned the price point. That’s intentional, we’re trying to keep this at a price point that you don’t have to choose between our tool and another tool. And I remember when I was just starting out and I would have killed to get my hands on some enterprise level data, that’s what we’re providing. Is enterprise level data that’s not at an enterprise level price so that the local business can compete with huge, huge and huge. Because you’re actually getting access to data that’s very similar to what they have.

Now, the additional thing we’re trying to throw onto that is enterprise level data is usually in the hands of people that are extremely experienced. So then we’re trying to take more and more level off of that and say okay, here’s the enterprise level data. Here’s how you can apply even if you don’t know too much about SEO. Every iteration of the tool, that’s what we’re trying to get closer to the really anybody could do it and be effective. So not just that you can get a green dot and say I did the SEO, but what you did can actually help you rank, can actually help you move the needle.

Jesse Dolan: I think there’s two big things that’s been impactful for our business, our agency, how we use it internally, too. Is number one when we bring new people on, this, you do your content briefs or just some of the Excel spreadsheets that we exported to Excel, giving it to people that kind of know SEO but maybe don’t know our certain way, it’s like here. Here’s a quick punch list of some things to kind of get you on the right track, super easy as far as delegation or training and things like that. But then secondly, as you use it, you start to kind of know the things that are important, right? You go through enough of these runs on a certain page, or in our case, multiple clients, multiple pages, you really start to learn what Google is wanting to favor. Kind of getting back to your Lorem ipsum type deal, these keywords and these spot or these types of factors, what it’s looking for.

And if you run it through Pop, maybe you’re getting a 39 score, it’s zero to 100 right, for everybody. As you use this more and more and you’re developing your page before you run off your pop, you’ll probably find you’re starting to score in the 70s or the 80s just by understanding how to put a good SEO page together and then analyzing it against your local competition.

Kyle Roof: People tell me that a lot, actually. They’ll use the too for a while they’re like, when I first started I was scoring 10s on my page. But then now I’m in the 60s because it actually trains you to write a better page. And then what’s also nice about that, and I tell people often one of the best ways to use Pop is to kind of do that first run, get some general guidelines. So that you have some structure to what you’re doing, make an outline off of that and then write. And don’t stress about it too much, then come back once you have that completed document, run it again and then edit for SEO. So kind of get that framework or get those concepts together, write it or give your content creator a brief on it, saying this is approximately what we need. But don’t press the SEO too hard at that point. Let them write, let them be creative and then come back and edit on top of that. And you’re going to come back with some pretty good pages.

Jesse Dolan: Yeah, makes perfect sense, man. We also use it kind of quarterly. I mean, things change, Google changes for what it’s looking for, the competitors change. If you trump somebody, they’re not just going to sit there and roll over. They’re going to make some changes to try to trump you. And then as we’ve all seen in 2020, the market changes, things pop up out of nowhere like coronavirus and totally change the landscape what people are searching for. So even if you are good at SEO, you use Pop, boom, you’re on the top of the SERPs, first place, that may change for you, right? And what we do is when our rankings change because they will eventually run in Pop right away. So before we go in there’s it’s like, oh, what’s wrong? It’s like, well, let’s run it and see what’s changed right now, who’s in the lead and what’s Google favoring?

And it just like on the front side it helped you, on that backside, too, if you’re having problems. It’s just a super handy way to go about it. And like you’re saying too, it’s not price prohibitive. We’re an agency, so we use this on multiple websites. Even if you’re a business owner out there and it’s just for your company, this isn’t a subscription, it’s like a gym membership man. You can just set it and forget it. And if you use it hot and heavy for the first quarter, I mean, just come back to using it every month a little bit. It’s going to be in your credit card and you’re going to have no problem with it, because whenever you need to use it… I mean, most companies, if you sell a product or a service, you’re getting whatever, 50 or 100 bucks, right? If it helps you sell one more thing a month you’d be more than paid for the thing, right?

Kyle Roof: It’s paid for itself, yeah. Two things that I have, one, I always like the mentality that we all think we’re the only SEO in that space. Everyone thinks that, everyone thinks that they are the only one that’s doing anything to the SERP, and so when things don’t work or if they did something and then somebody jumps over them, they’re like, how is this happening? What’s Google doing to me? Well, there might be a couple other SEOs in play.

But nobody ever thinks that, it’s Google, it’s Google messing with me, man. It’s never, ever oh, there might actually be other six other SEOs that are trying really hard right now on this space? The other thing on the monitoring. So we’re actually going to release that feature, we’re hoping by the end of this year where you can actually set it in pop and we will rerun on a monthly, quarterly, whatever you would like, looking for changes in the SERPs. So when a sight drops out and somebody drops in and seeing how that impacts, and then we’re going to shoot you the recommendations like, hey, you know what, these two dropped. These two are in, it’s tweaked things just as much, maybe add a few terms here. So that that way you can, as an agency, you can stay completely on top of any time there’s any movement in the SERPs.

Jesse Dolan: That’d be spectacular. Even if you’re not an agency, quite frankly, man, that’s proactive awareness.

Kyle Roof: Oh, yeah, if this is your livelihood, it might be important to see if Google moves.

Jesse Dolan: Right. That’s something Bob and I were talking earlier and we talk all the time, is this is better than any sales team. If you can be at the top of Google, I mean, your. It doesn’t have bad days.

Bob Brennan: DWIs.

Jesse Dolan: If you’re not using tools like Pop, if you’re not investing to make sure you’re proactively staying there and doing SEO, you have to. Because like you said Kyle, the other people that are showing up on the first page probably are. There’s people that are-

Kyle Roof: Well, when you hit page one, you moved somebody off, they’re probably not happy about that.

Bob Brennan:  No.

Jesse Dolan: They can feel it.

Kyle Roof: Right, they’re bottom line.

Bob Brennan: I know we seem like Penn & Teller and I’m the quiet guy, so I just want to run something by here real quick.

Kyle Roof: Please.

Bob Brennan: How would you describe the landscape of SEO agencies out there in that… and if you can expound on this is what I like about you and I follow Clint and we follow Terri, obviously, and a few other high end SEO folks in that it seems as if in the early days of SEO there agencies that were really learning on your dye. In terms of if you’re the business owner, they’re like oh no, we can… they promise you the moon and the they’re “figuring it out on the fly.” So if there’s a cross section of SEO agencies, what I like about you, Kyle, and everything you’ve offered is it seems like you’ve got your clients, but in addition to that, you must have a bunch of test sites out there, if you will, to kind of understand this algorithm and everything else out there like that. And to whatever extent if you could give us a profile of 30% of the agencies are looks like this, 20% of the agencies are like this. And the elites have these attributes.

And the reason I run that by you is again, a lot of our listeners are small business owners. They know this is important, but what their top notch engine designers or engine builders or car mechanics or construction people and they’re good at their trade and this is just one more thing they have to figure out.And if they’re going to have somebody else do it for them, I think the value that we can bring to the table is to try to say, okay, these are the types of SEO folks out there. These are the attributes that you want to look for. And so if you could just kind of give your version of what do you think the profile of various SEO agencies out there and what the best of the best have in qualities versus my sister in law, that today she’s an SEO person, you know what I mean?

Kyle Roof:  I’ve lost a lot of contracts to that sister in law. Well, my sister in law just put up a WordPress blog, so she’s going to take over our SEO, I don’t know.

Jesse Dolan: You’re good then.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, it’s solid. Let me kind of tell you how I got into testing. I needed to learn SEO that day because I needed to put food on the table, was really kind of where I was at. And I needed to put a plan together and I… is this a ranking factor? And I did a search kind of like that. And three answers on it said yes and three said no and three said maybe. And I was like, well, that’s really not going to work. And I was like, oh, they don’t give answers on these types of blogs, these types of things because they’re all running their own tests and why would they give away that info? So then I started building my own tests sites to give things a run. And in 2015 I gave a talk on it. It was my first public talk where I was on stage. About how I set, I was like, hey, this is the way that I figured out how to set up tests so that you could actually really reduce a lot of variables and maybe get down to about as close as a single variable test as you can. And this is what I’ve been playing with and I presented that.

And it was to a room of really high level SEOs that I thought that this would be a collaborative thing where I would be discussing what I was doing and they would tell me what they were doing and then we’d all maybe find out something, cool. And about five minutes into this talk, because it was interactive, that there were… people could ask questions. I was like, oh, nobody is doing this. No one is doing it this way at all.

Bob Brennan: Really, wow.

Kyle Roof: And I was like, oh, okay, that’s when I realized, I was like, I might have something here, that I might have figured something out in terms of what I can do. So you don’t have to run tests like I do to be an excellent SEO obviously, there fantastic SEOs that don’t. But being able to find the answer and having a way to find the answer is imperative, because, I don’t know all the answers. But I have a way to do it. I have a way that I’ve figure out that I can do it. I’ve also got a support system of SEOs that I trust, and they’re people that I can talk to and I can bounce ideas off of. So you need to have some way for you to get the answer so that when the client ask the questions, you don’t have to well, it depends.

As soon as you say that, it’s probably the wrong answer. But you can say here’s my experience or this is what I’ve tested. So this is what I think. But I can find that out for you. And here’s how I can do that. So you need a way to be able to kind of convey those concepts. I think it’s not a bad thing to ask an agency what they’re testing right now, because even if they’re just doing case studies, they should be doing some case studies, right? But they should be gathering some information of some sort. So if you’re in the proposal stage and you want to… you’re really not sure you say hey, can you show me two or three of your most recent tests? Or what are you guys testing right now? And don’t send it in an email, do it on the phone call so you can hear their reaction. Do it on a zoom.

Bob Brennan: Right. So I mean, that’s a big drop dead moment where like, okay, what testing are you doing? And if they kind of say, what do you mean by that? Or maybe not to disqualify them, but you know what I mean?

Kyle Roof: You want to know that they’re like… because people and I don’t like this question a lot, but I get it a lot is the Google’s changing all the time. How do you stay on top of things? And my response to that is Google isn’t really, when you look at the bell curve of Google, there’s the 10, 15% that outlier, that’s what Google is going after. But there’s this 70, 80% in the middle that they economically cannot change. They can’t change their algorithm so radically because it would cost them so much money. And the only people that really complain about Google results are SEOs. Human beings that use Google on a regular basis aren’t complaining about the results. So there’s no reason for Google to spend money to change something that people like. The only thing they’re going to spend money on or try to get those outliers that are trying to gain it. That’s really what they’re after. But that middle section doesn’t change a lot. So a lot of tests that are run are just to confirm that the middle are staying in the middle, and I can tell you that it does.

So I know that people want to ask that question to agencies, how do you stay on top of Google? I don’t like that question because I don’t think it’s really quite… it doesn’t quite get the idea of what Google’s really trying to do. I don’t think. But I would say, where are you going with SEO? What are you looking at? What are you interested in? Because they should have things that they’re interested in, right? I mean, you think you should.

Bob Brennan: I mean, hopefully that makes sense to a lot of business owners out there just because, again, how do you find a good accountant? How do you find a good mechanic in terms of… or other things that you don’t normally need, but now you need it. And, boy, do you need it. Okay, so we go recommendations and stuff like this. But this point that you just made, I think is critical. If you’re going to be spending $20,000 a year, which is probably what you’re going to spend on a valid SEO company to start with, you want to make darn sure that you’re getting a return on that at least in three to six months in. But before you get to that point, you really got to understand what questions to ask and what tools they’re.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, that’s not a bad question to ask either, what tools do you like? And it doesn’t really matter. But just an agency should have a suite of tools that they’re using because there isn’t one tool that doesn’t really… I mean, my agency, we do Pop, believe it or not. We use other on page tools, we like Cora, from Ted Kubaitas. That’s a fantastic tool. If you’re brand new to SEO, I mean, if you’re having trouble sleeping on a Thursday night, you can grab one of those Excel sheets and just let your eyes go. There’s no other tool gives that much data. It’s unbelievably powerful. It’s so powerful. But you really have to know what you’re doing.

Bob Brennan: I mean, we use both those tools but we evolved into Cora. I mean Pop is really, I think the starting point for most of us. And it is a tool that you need to retain either way.

Jesse Dolan: Cora’s awesome. This is no slight against Cora at all, but Pop’s very approachable. It’s web based, you can have that express version and people just kind of plug a few things in and it’s fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.

Bob Brennan: Yeah. I think 80 to 90% of the people should use pop and then that elite might jump into Cora at some point. I mean, it’s QuickBooks versus whatever.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, I think that’s fair. And Ted’s a friend by the way, he’s a very good friend of mine. So we’ve had these talks about I think you should make this more usable and he’s like, no.

Bob Brennan:  Sounds like Ted.

Jesse Dolan: Well, it’s kind of like you’re saying to make Cora affordable. I use the word approachable too, things like that, to where Ted’s almost kind of like and I’m putting words in his mouth and projecting. But it’s not for everybody too, right. You have to be a little bit advanced to really use it, to digest it and things like that. And it is more expensive as well, too. I mean, you kind of have to have a certain threshold to want to use that tool so positioning makes sense, right?

Kyle Roof:  Bob, can I add one other thing too, on talking to an agency. So in our agency, I think one of the biggest fears that people have are that I’m going to give this agency who I trust at the beginning, I’m going to give them $2000 a month or $1000 or $500, it doesn’t matter. And they’re going to get through a month or two and they’re going to have the question of what are they doing? What have they done and on my team, what I tell people with our account managers, that’s the one email we can’t get. We can’t get the email that says, I don’t know what’s going on with my project right now. We’re not perfect by any stretch and we do get it from time to time. But also there’s some hell to pay and that comes in.

But really, the client, you should be confident that something is actually being done, that it’s not pixie dust. And they’re not incantations that are being done. There should be some physical work being done and you should be able to express it. So I think maybe another good question to ask an agency is what’s the monthly breakdown on the work? What does a successful month look like just in terms of work being done? Ask for an idea on that. What we do in our agency is we actually have a point system. So let’s say your budget is 2000 a month, we call that 200 points. We’ve pointed out all the activities that we might do. So when we talk about your goals, our goal is to do this, okay, good.

We think these strategies are what we need to do and that’s how many points. This strategy is this many points, this is this many points. So that’s a conversation that happens at the beginning of the month, during the month, we talk about, okay, this is what we’re now doing and at the end of month, we show the work that we did. So you can see at the beginning of the month what we will do. We talk about it in the middle of the month of what we are doing and at the end of the month we show what we did. And that way people can see where that budget is going. So the question to ask an agency whether you’re going to get into, is can you show how you’re going to be using my budget?

And we’re completely transparent too in a sense of, you know what, 50 points here that’s going toward software fees, we have licensing fees. We have to pass that on to you, that’s what this is. Then we have an open file fee essentially, we have to do admin to keep this going to make sure that we can communicate with you and that’s what this fee is right here. And we break it all the way down. And not everybody needs to be that detailed. But I think a good thing to ask is what does a successful month look like in terms of the work being done so they can see what a normal month would look like? What’s the output going to be so that at the end of the month I can see where my money was spent.

Bob Brennan: So, I mean, really, it’s good communication and I mean, like you said, if people are hiding behind the veil and not really being transparent with work that’s being done, let alone results, obviously, in terms of as business owners, that’s what we want. We want to see results. Now, I would imagine the other thing you’re up against is most business owners want it, yesterday. Where you’ve got to set those realistic expectations and then have metrics that these are indicators that it’s working. I mean, we all know about reports and, hey, this is where you’re ranking and then this is your traffic. But at the end of the day, like we say, if the phone isn’t ringing, the email’s staying… those are the real life metrics, along with all the infrastructure pieces that you’re talking about.

Kyle Roof:  And that’s something else that an agency that is experienced or an SEO that’s experienced, they can actually give you a reasonable expectation. They can say this is the work we’re willing to do and the idea is that we’re going to be here when we get there. Something that I did in our agency that actually really helped a lot is because people get into the what have you done for me lately mindset? Small businesses owners do. Because it can be like you got them 20 calls this month and they’re like well, we got 20 calls last month. I’m like, yeah. Well, why didn’t it go up to 21 or 22? I’m like, well, I don’t know. I’m not actually making these calls.

But what we started doing is benchmarking pages because so in Pop you’re optimizing a page. All your activities are geared towards this particular page where we’re putting our efforts here and whatever those efforts might be. But the idea is that we need to see how this particular page is performing. That was a big step forward for us just in benchmarking a page. So let’s say this page exists on the site and we have our target key word and we’ve got secondary key words they were interested in, we benchmark all that. Not where we’re ranking them for them necessarily, because that doesn’t matter at the end of the day. What matters is, is this page getting impressions in Google, is it getting clicks and is it getting conversions? And we benchmark all of those things so that we can actually see if this page is doing anything. The work that we’re putting into this, is it actually bringing any benefit.

And a page that is performing well, will be picking up keywords. So you’ll see that in search console and you’ll see that the impressions for that page are increasing. But what’s interesting is that you’ll see that the key word rank, the aggregate rank is dropping. The reason is because you’re picking up keywords and they’re ranking lower, it’s actually going to bring down the total average of the page. But people will look at that and they freak out, my page is dropping. No, your page is expanding. They also see click through rate drop and people freak out. Oh, no, it’s because we picked up 10 new keywords, they’re on page six, they’re not get any clicks. And so it’s hurting our overall click through rate but you’re now casting a wider net. So you need to see that impressions are increasing and then that the clicks are increasing. Are we actually then getting clicks to this page and then whatever the conversion point is, that needs to be monitored as well. Because you can then see hey, we’re getting a lot of impressions, we’re getting a lot of traffic, people aren’t buying it, that’s not my fault as the SEO.

There’s something on this page now that people don’t like. The message isn’t matching or sometimes you have to tell… you don’t say this but it’s like people don’t like your product. I hate to break this one to you. But well, you can at least benchmark and see it so that if you have that flat month, you can also say you know what, we started here and now we’re all the way up here. Yeah, this was a flat month, but you can see where that growth has come from.

Jesse Dolan: So just to kind of drill that back down for everybody to especially using free products, chyme in kind of from our base here, but basically distilling it down, check out your impressions and Google search console that should be going up. Check out your organic traffic through Google Analytics and that should be going up as well. So you’re getting impressions and clicks and then whatever your conversions are, if it’s phone calls, email, forms, whatever, that should be going up to, right? Even if you’re not ranking because like you’re saying, if you’re monitoring rank and there’s one keyword, but now you’re getting traffic on seven other keywords that you weren’t monitoring the rank for like you’re blind to that, at the end of the day, it is those impressions and then that actual traffic to your site. That’s the real stats there.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, keyword ranking is not a KPI. Really, it’s a vanity situation because to your exact point, your keyword, you might never win. It might be a key word that is just pie in the sky. You’re going up against huge, huge and huge. They’ve got marketing budgets like you wouldn’t believe, but you still want a pay page that you want to optimize for that because there are those secondary keywords and you can start winning a lot of those. Often those longer tailed secondary keywords which are lower in search volume, they’re often more buyer intent. Would you rather win the sexy one that converts no one or the one that only has ten clicks a month but two of those people convert?

Jesse Dolan: It’s specific for what they’re looking for.

Kyle Roof: And then you’ve built this page or this one target keyword, you’re watching it and you’re stuck on page seven and you think your SEO’s the worst person of all time, really, your SEO’s problem was they didn’t convey very well, that actually this sight’s not ranking, it was ranking for 100 keywords, it’s now ranking for 400 keywords. Our net is this wide, we’re getting all these impressions and we’re getting on terms that are more likely to convert.

Jesse Dolan: All right, well, I think we’ve probably taken up our budget time with you, Kyle, appreciate kind of going-

Kyle Roof:  We can keep talking, I don’t care.

Jesse Dolan: Okay, yeah, you’ve got all the time in the world over there, it’s night time. Night time for you, we’re just getting our day going, right? So we’re just keeping you up is all we’re doing, I suppose. Is there anything else you wanted to add, though, Kyle, about Pop, about kind of these concepts? Or did we kind of round out everything you think that everybody out there needs to know for how to decipher this stuff?

Kyle Roof:  I think so. One other thing, we actually do a free training every week on Pop. When you get in there, you can sign up for the workshop that we do. I actually break down a lot of SEO. So it’s about a 45 minute experience. But I walk through kind of what fast and effective SEO can be for your on page. And then I kind of give a talk about how Pop can help you with that. But if you’re very new to SEO, this might be good for you because you can actually use any tool. And people watching, like I don’t want to use Pop or I used it in the past, I hate it, that’s fine. You can join the workshop and just learn some SEO and then I come in live at the end and I’ll answer any questions that you have. Specifically to using Pop to what you saw in the webinar or pretty open resource on… I haven’t turned any questions down like no, we don’t talk… that’s fine. If you have an SEO question I’ll answer it so I come on live at the end and answer any and all questions. And I’ll stay on as long as people need.

Bob Brennan: That’s a huge value, that’s huge.

Kyle Roof: Yeah, so people listening and they want to do that, jump on, learn some SEO. So you have to go to PageOptimizer but you don’t have to have a subscription, link’s in the footer on the home page. Just join a workshop and then I’ll help you learn some SEO.

Jesse Dolan: And we’ll drop that into our show page here for you to make it super easy. And is that the best way for people to try to connect with you if they want to kind of learn more of this outside of obviously signing up for Pop? If they want to do that, that’ll be evident. But any other resources you want to throw out there for people to find you or to access you for anything else?

Kyle Roof:    I am in Internet Marketing Dot Gold. So that’s the community group that Ted and I run.

Jesse Dolan:  Which is awesome, by the way, super value.

Kyle Roof: There you can post questions. Hopefully, at the end of this month, we’ve got a new thing coming out on that that I’m pretty pumped about where we’re going to have somewhere to the tune of 12, 13, 14 courses in there. And if you’re a paid member, you get 100% access to all the courses. So the idea is that… and by the way, in IMG we post 10 tests a month on Google’s algorithm. That’s really the focus of the group if you want to see what testing is all about, if you want to do a test, you can come in and we’ll teach you how to do it. But in the paid area of the group we do 10 tests a month on Google’s algorithm, there’s a show that you can join to ask questions about it and to hear the people that are running the test and what they have to think about it, what they think about it and how to apply it. But then we’re adding one more feature, which is kind of the learning or the courses area.

So I’m launching a brand new course in that, Ted is launching a brand new course as well. And then there’s some courses that are being made for us, some are existing courses. And we’ll bring them all in one spot but they’ll have 100% access. And I think we’re going to charge something stupid like 79 a month for it. So what we’re really trying to do is set up a place where people can go and learn SEO. And then it doesn’t matter if you’re at beginner level or if you’re an advanced SEO and you’re looking for tools for the tool belt. One courses on TikTok optimization. So is this something that we can help our clients learn? Now you can get in and see it. You can see what it’s all about.

App Store optimization, that kind of stuff if you’re kind getting there we’re launching that and we’ve got an hour basics course for that. So you can kind of get a feel for what’s involved. And then I’m doing a white hat course, which kind of teaches what that is and what you can do with it and what’s involved. Ted’s doing a links building course. So all different types of things going on. And yeah, so we’re looking to launch Black Friday, somewhere around there.

Jesse Dolan:  So that’s going to IMG?

Kyle Roof: Yeah. So that’s going to be like when Disney plus drop The Mandalorian and now we have to subscribe. Not that I’m The Mandalorian, but that’s the idea because my on page course last year I think got a lot of traction. It was pretty successful so we’re going to try to build off of that. If you like this then get it here on IMG.

Jesse Dolan: I want to vouch for that too because we’ve been in that sense, it was the Cora, Pop Skype group and then you guys went over to IMG, just flexing the OG clout here, right?

Kyle Roof:  Yeah, I love it.

Jesse Dolan: And I’ve been more of a lurker than posting questions. And you can spend all day there. If there’s something you want to know about SEO, somebody’s probably asked something about it or there’s resources or tools on there. It is a great group and people like you too, very helpful. There’s a lot of public Facebook groups out there which are spectacular, but IMG just kind of has its own different vibe and just a bunch of great resources in there, too. So we’ll link to that as well for everybody to check that out.

Kyle Roof:  Obviously Facebook is easy because everyone’s on Facebook, but we kind of want something where you go in here and it’s a kind of a special thing. This is the spot that you can kind of learn some SEO. So it kind of felt like… then I think it’s going to definitely feel more like that once we’ve got the courses in there, too. It’ll definitely have a feel of all right, this is a place where I can really get some SEO answers.

Jesse Dolan: All right. So that pretty much does it for this episode. Kyle, spectacular. I’m glad we got to connect to you and talk about all this. I should mention to everybody else again, too, we’re going to drop all these links and topics and the show notes are going to be a hefty chunk down there. In addition to getting that 15% off PageOptimizer Pro, which is spectacular. So for everybody out there, if you haven’t left us a review, we’d love to get one from you. As you know, in every episode we read them, as long as we keep getting the reviews, we’re going to keep reading them. So this episode here, we got a great five star review from Stewart George Smith. It says your business needs this info. This podcast is crammed with important info to help you feed the machine and win in your local market. I’ve listened to every episode three or more times. That’s a lot, Stewart, I appreciate that.

Bob Brennan: Yeah, you need to get a hobby dude.

Jesse Dolan: But that’s a lot. No, I’ve listened to every episode three or more times because it’s so exciting. You guys keep saying this info isn’t sexy. Who doesn’t want to excel over the competitors online? Thanks so much for giving such powerful and actionable advice. You’re helping me rank my business and pop in the map app for more and more searches. I only hope my competitors aren’t listening too.

We hope they are, sorry, Stewart, but thanks, guys. Please keep it coming. Stewart, that Tucson music lessons. Spectacular, that makes us feel awesome and very validated. So thanks for that, Stewart. Everybody else got to localSEOtactics.com, down the bottom. You’ll find all the links for Apple podcast, Google my business, wherever you want to leave us a review. If you leave it, we’re going to read it and we really appreciate it. So well, that pretty much does it. Thanks for jumping on, Kyle. Bob, thanks for hanging out again on this episode.

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