Jesse Dolan Interviewed by Sue and Bob – Episode 200

 

Jesse: It's always, I don't know, try to spice it up a little bit, right. Or present it good and kind of that impression of things. Something I always, uh, take joy in the ambiance, if you will. Right. Just how it comes across the company name. Swedish for impression, right? And that's because what we do is not only get people found, but we also want to make sure they have a good impression that people like the business they find. And that's kind of at the core of really what motivates us is getting people found, having their business be successful. And hopefully them passing that joy back to us saying, hey, thanks for the help, you know, you guys and gals rock too.

Jesse: Welcome back to local SEO tactics, where we bring you tips and tricks to get found online. I'm your host, Jesse Dolan. Here today with Sue Ginsburg and Bob Brennan. How you two doing today?

Bob: Excellent.

Sue: Great, just great.

Jesse: And we've got Sue, I know you got some questions lined up. We are recording here episode 200, like we were just talking, half a milestone, right? That's a big deal. We've been doing it for, actually I think it's coming up, gonna be around close to five years here. And Sue, I think you were just saying, this is your 77th episode, right, that you've recorded.

Sue: Yeah.

Jesse: So on our show here. So yeah, we've been doing this for a while. And Sue, you had the idea for you and Bob to kind of flip it around and interview me, kind of pick me. Apart with some questions and see if we can get into some stuff. So this will be a fun one. Um, why don't you take the reins? Let's get going.

Sue: Sounds good. Well, I have a quote of the day for this one. And it is, it's not the strongest species that survived nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change. And that's a Charles Darwin quote, which I thought was appropriate because over the time that you have started, grown and scaled this business, there's been a lot of change. You've been responsive to it and, and changed things that need to be to make it better, better and, keep improving it. So, I like that quote for this one. So, okay, 200th episode, which we're recording it right near the 4th of July. So, it's, there'll be a lot of fireworks. I'm going to say celebrating the 200th episode of this podcast, how's that?

Bob: Perfect.

Jesse: Yeah. All right. Independence Day or 200 episode on our podcast.

Sue: That's right.

Jesse: Tossup.

Sue: That's right. That's right. That's right. So, all right, to start with Jesse, tell us about your journey, what you were doing before SEO, what motivated you to start the business, what motivated you to do the podcast, and all that.

Jesse: That's a long answer for each ass there, but yeah, I guess start at the beginning. Bob, I've worked with Bob for pretty much my entire professional career since the late nineties. And really, I guess what started us in SEO, I don't know if you remember Bob, I probably butcher the part number, but I know where we really got excited about digital marketing, inbound marketing, search marketing, things like this is those little facts. uh, fax rolls for some sharp copiers or fax machines, I'm sorry. And we were using overture, which was like early, early way before even Google pay per click, right? My positionings in search.

Bob: Yeah, right.

Jesse: And we were sourcing these little fax cartridges for whatever pennies on the dollar out of a surplus deal, flipping them at full retail online and then just buying positioning right for, uh, call it Google ad words, but like I said, it was overture at the time, I think. I think Yahoo ended up buying them out. But that really turned from, gosh, we did like broadcast faxing, telemarketing, knocking on doors, every cold sales method you could think of. And that's kind of when the light bulb went off. It's like, holy crap, people are just going to search for this stuff in as long as we can be there, right, when they're looking. Just reap the rewards. And that kind of ran out after a while. Or I know we did other stuff like that. But I think that was the. The very first glimmer right of a different type of marketing.

Bob: Yeah.

Jesse: Am I recalling that right? Or what do you think? Is that.

Bob: Yeah, no, I think that was the first whiff of what could be possible, the power of the internet, right?

Sue: Great.

Bob: And then the, you know, obviously, the grind in sales and in business back then was... was cold calling or knocking on doors, then you really have to work to get sales or whatever. And that was the first time to us that we experienced real inbound sales and then something that could scale powerful.

Sue: Yeah.

Bob: So.

Jesse: That I think we were doing that and didn't really have like a marketplace right or our website even and I feel like maybe it's a little fuzzy but that's when okay we better get a website better do some things and they're just atrocious if anybody wants to look into the internet archive the way back machine just look up IOT INC comm for if it takes screenshots all the way back it's pretty funny to look at them compared to where the web is now right way more functional nowadays and not nearly as cute and whatever. But yeah, we started we started then working in not even Google at that time, you know, getting found in Yahoo and whatever Microsoft's if it was MSN whatever excite all kinds of different search engines and really just figuring out how to start that inbound marketing. I see back to your question like right where does it start? What was the whole reason for getting into the game? I think Bob and I were just in marketing in general selling, I guess even more so. And then I started gravitating towards that just like, well, let's figure out this whole website thing. And we were talking like dial up internet, super low-end graphics, right? Just like, how can you get a webpage to exist? And started messing with it from there. And I think I've shared the story a little bit fast forward and quite a bit here, but that was all through IOT, right? Like our own internal marketing department. for the company. I was partners with Bobette and that worked really good for us to grow the business. And then people started asking, you know, can you make websites for me? We started finding different niches to operate in. And long story short, whatever, seven, eight years ago, maybe more now, we spun in tricks off into its own company. That is just now a digital marketing agency, digital marketing firm doing what we do primarily just the inbound marketing, right? Getting found in Google, no longer you overture or flipping. products are playing any kind of arbitrage, you know, I'm trying to make a buck here and there, but just focusing on helping other businesses. So, and I think that's always a fun story to, and Bob to tell because there's so many marketers that I think are just in this because they geeked out in their parents' basement and learning SEO, but you know, we come at this with the history of actually growing your own business, right? And making an impact, understanding what traditional marketing, analog marketing, cold calling, whatever, what all that means for your business. the investment it takes in the time, energy and money, how that contrasts to getting found in Google, um, pretty big light bulb moment went off there. And really, I think kind of set the trajectory in the course, uh, for our business, for his business intros, um, really soon never would have met you, right, or had any of this opportunity that we've had without any of that kicking off and, uh, yeah, it's been pretty fun ride so far. So, so that was a long, didn't cover all of your questions. So.

Sue: Well, what's really, no, that's great. And what's interesting to me, one of the interesting things is, so you were both essentially in selling mode and then went into tech mode of, let me figure out how to build a website, let me figure out how to do the SEO. That's a big switch that lots and lots and most people could never make. Who you taught you? You’re self-taught?

Jesse: It was a big switch.

Sue: On the technology side.

Jesse: I think everything's self-taught. And if I do think back, there's probably too big, kind of too big level and ups. Uh, one was, you know, Bob and I would talk all the time about marketing and what would work, whether it be designing a flyer or a website. Um, really looking at what was working out there in mass media, right? Um, if you're noticing billboards or TV commercials or print media, um, what were the big brands doing? You know, what, just kind of reverse engineering and studying their message. Yeah. The design elements or colors, you know, things like that. You know, not trying to reinvent the wheel and come up with something unique and interesting, right? But just like, hey, the big Madison Avenue budgets, what have they figured out? And trying to pull some insights from that. And then I forget the exact year, but we employed a guy by the name of Ben Tipler that came to IoT and really was... our first outside person coming in to really focus just on marketing, graphics, design websites, things like that. And working through Ben, um, just deciding how we want the website to look, to function, um, and the evolution of it through the years, I started learning from him, learning how to do it. And, uh, we parted ways with Ben, you know, number of years down the road. And then I just kind of took the reins back on that and really dove headfirst into learning PHP, uh, HTML coding. building websites, we were against WordPress at the onset because WordPress really wasn't what it is today. It was really, you know, for people doing blogs and did a ton of custom websites, which I think was really good exposure and knowledge from an SEO standpoint, understanding how a website came together, how to make it fast, how to make it load right. This was very, very early in the mobile, friendly days too, right? Understanding different people. visiting your website in different browsers and pulling that all together. Very much, very much self-taught. Um, because I don't think there was really a big option to go otherwise in this industry. I mean, it, it was an evolving thing, you know, back to your quote of the day, right? Internet marketing, inbound marketing, search marketing hadn't been around before, you know, it, it was on…

Sue: Yeah.

Jesse: The forefront and we were on the bleeding edge with everybody else. And. I guess lucky enough to fall into a space. And again, I'll go back, Bob, we had the, whether it be the burden or the luxury of the traditional cold calling and cold sales to know how valuable the search in the internet marketing was, right? And kind of having that contrast of both of those ends made you really appreciate. Even though it's a struggle, again, a lot of self-learning and experimentation to get the stuff right online with SEO and websites, still paled in comparison. with how much time energy would have been spent on the traditional outbound sales to get the same results. So I don't think the self-taught part really ever was a big hurdle, right, or anything to turn us in that. It's been great, so.

Sue: Wow. You say that wasn't a big hurdle, but I'm thinking up until that point, did you have any idea that you had the frame of mind or the propensity for technology? I mean, not everybody does. And you're such an expert at it. I just can't believe you didn't grow up taking these things apart and putting them together and... and knowing that this was something that was a strength of yours.

Jesse: Yeah, I think it really hit two parts of my brain that I always thought were kind of there. One was the artistic side. Going through high school, a lot of my electives were very much like graphic design, painting, drawing, artistic stuff. And that's really where in working with Bob, to be clear when I started with Bob, I was making toner cartridges, right? Like super not sexy, not marketing, not sales, just kind of rebuilding things.

Jesse: The negative side of the lav mic right there. But no, I think the, the artistic side really came out when we just needed to create things, whether it be stickers for boxes, Bob, or packaging we were looking at, or flyers. It was really a one-man shop when the business started. Bob was out there selling stuff, servicing in the field. And I was back in his parents' basement, you know, throwing toner around and making these things. So, we, we had to bootstrap and come up with everything together. And I just had a little bit of a vent on the artistic side. Um, a Bob was too busy B. And so, I just kind of gravitated towards those areas. But then the other side of my brain, which is how I started working with Bob in the first place is doing things, working with your hands, right? Kind of a little bit more of that engineering, figure it out process type mindset. Um, I think that's always been in there with me too, right? Like trying to break stuff, put it back together, fixing things, troubleshooting. Um, I've always kind of gravitated towards that and really web design and SEO. that hits both of them, right? You have to have a little…

Sue: Yeah.

Jesse: …bit of a design, user experience, kind of playing with the elements, artistic side of you, but then you definitely have to have kind of that engineer side, the problem solving, figure out how things work, whether it be building a webpage or just the complex algorithms and the things that go into SEO. So, for me, I guess I was lucky enough to naturally... you know, have my brain operate in a way that seemed to work with those things. And I'm butchering Bob's quotes, he's had him on his whiteboard and other stuff, but basically when you love what you do, right, it's not work. And so these things excited me to learn more, to experiment, to create. You know, there's something cool about, you know, WordPress is great and you can drag and drop and kind of build websites, but there's something cool about just coding that and figuring out how to do interesting things. you know, within the HTML and then make it represent how you and your business wanted it online while, while knowing in the background, you did something kind of cool, right? From a coding standpoint, that always kind of motivated me and, and made it fun too. And then just Sue bring it full circle, the continued learning. There just isn't anything in this industry that ever stops, right? Google has continued to evolve as a company. And that's the primary thing when we talk inbound marketing, it's being found in Google, right? To be clear. Um, Google has evolved the tactics have evolved and, uh, quite frankly, that was one of the big reasons, um, Bob had the idea to launch this show almost five years ago is to put that same type of resource back out there really for everybody else. You know, this is how we learn. Um, I didn't go to college for any of this. I've, I've talked about that before, uh, right out of high school, you know, started working with Bob and learned all this on the fly on the job, self-taught. That doesn't make me any less smart than somebody who went to school or any less motivated. I just went through a different course of education, right? So yeah, um, that's why we're even on this show is kind of turn that around, give it back and help people out in the same way. And so hopefully that answers your question.

Sue: So awesome.

Jesse: This is dangerous to just ask me questions because I do ramble so much and get off on tangents.

Bob: No, but it’s good it’s good to see how that evil mind works.

Jesse: We'll see. See how this goes.

Sue: It's interesting stuff too. I mean, I think it's amazing really to look where you started and where you are now, just such a nonlinear path, which I love. It's great, it's great. Speaking of, if you look back over the time for this business and the podcast and for Intrycks, you've made a lot of changes. and your role has changed from doing it all to putting the right people in the right places. And I'd be curious to know from you, how has your role changed and how do you see it continuing to change and how do you feel about that? I mean, I think you've been doing things you love each step of the way as it's gone.

Jesse: Yeah, and that's kind of hard too, because I do like doing this as a career and as a profession. But then there's this book, Bob, I know you've read it, I can't remember if we've talked about it Sue, but the E-Myth, where if you try to be that Superman or superwoman, you know, because you're good at a thing or you like doing the thing, but as a business owner, it's really your obligation to not just be. you know, the one doing that thing, practicing that craft, if you want to scale the business and grow it. If you just want to be that artisan, that craftsman, you know, a solopreneur bound by whatever capacity you personally have, you know, to do the thing or the service, then that's great. I think we've always had a vision to scale and tricks and to build something more than that. And one of the first things you have to do is learn how to delegate. And through that, For me, it's about process. You know, for SEO, yeah, it's unique to every client, every market, every niche, but there's still kind of an overall recipe to follow. And that was one of the biggest leveling ups for us was, well, and aside, I should, like, we can't underscore this enough, having amazing people. You really have got to get the right people to, especially that first wave of delegation and trust. You got to have some lieutenants. You got to have some people that... can really do things the way you expect them to be done. And even further, maybe challenge you, disagree sometimes, make processes better. So you definitely got to have good people. And that's something I think we've been fortunate with a lot of effort, right? Not accidentally, but been fortunate to have. And then you really have to have the processes. We use online project management software for our entire team. And I think if you're ever... look into scale and grow, you have to have repeatable processes. This is also something that I think kind of grew within me, working with Bob in the past business relationship with the printers, copiers, these kinds of things. We had an entire facet of the business that was rebuilding toner cartridges, right? Which doesn't sound maybe super complex, but it really is to take something completely disassembled, refurbish it, test it. Uh, the quality of the controls that are in there, right? The repeatable processes, um, doing a ton of research and learning on, um, theming, um, a lot of the Toyota way was a giant book for us. I know back in the way for process and quality control. And so kind of having that business background for better part of a decade, you know, then applying it to when we launched Intrycks and scale it up. Just the natural that you have to have that stuff, I think in place to be able to turn something over to somebody else. But then also to know, you know, if things are working good or working bad, that's what you got to fall back on. Where's the problem? How do we improve and make sure it's a repeatable process that everybody's doing the same thing. We always joke, I guess a big inspiration is McDonald's. We always joke about it where it's not the best food. And this is one of Bob's phrases I'm coining here, but it's not the best food, but you know exactly what it's going to be every time. Right. That's it's consistent. You expect it. And. that's really about a process at the end of the day, a repeatable process, and that's what helped them scale. And I think that's been a huge part for us in growing Intrycks to where it's at today from where it started in me just being a one-man shop trying to do everything. So you got to let go, you got to have good people, and you got to have good processes for that to happen, I think, so.

Sue: Well, I have been very impressed with your ability to find and hire and, I'll say, develop really good people. We have great people on our team. And also, your willingness to delegate and move on to something that's a different use of your skill set or use of different skills that you have. And again, part of it is you knowing that these people are good and they can... they can do what now is their role to do. But that's not always easy for everybody. And you see, hear, and experience a lot of businesses who the business owner isn't really willing or good at getting out of it.

Jesse:   It's hard.

Sue: The business can't scale. Because yeah, you know, and that's a big change in role.

Bob: Okay.

Jesse: I think something that's difficult is we're always busy, you know, and if you don't have something mapped out or, you know, drawn out, whatever it is for a process to follow, if you're going to delegate a task or a series of tasks to somebody, uh, I think business owners or even managers at some levels get caught in the trap of, well, it'll take longer for me to map this out, to write it out and then to train Sue or to train Bob or to train So I will just do it myself. But next time, right? Next time I'll delegate this or train whatever. And you just get caught in that loop of just doing it just because you can just do it quicker than training somebody else. And it's hard because we're always so busy trying to do 17 things in a day when you have enough space to do two things to say I'm going to basically double the amount of time it would have taken me to do this task because I'm going to create a training program here, right? Or some outline that somebody can follow and then I'm going to work with them to get it done. That's a huge investment of time when you don't have it in that instance. And I think that's the trap. A lot of people will fall in as procrastinating on that or pushing it down the road and you got to really bite the bullet there and just say, you know what, maybe this is the only thing I do today. Um, but going forward, I'm never going to have to do this thing again. Um, now it's delegated and somebody else can take it over. I can still have the visibility of what's happening and tweak the process. Um, so we can improve it and evolve it. I haven't. completely divested myself from it. I'm just not executing it. And not only have you maybe shed yourself of that task, if you will, right, or leveled up in that sense, but now you've started to empower that person that you're training to do it, to start to do these things, right? If this was, I guess, in my head, I'm walking through the first time you do this with somebody, now they're in charge of that task, for that workflow, or that three ring binder with the notes in it. And the next time you need to delegate something, it's going to be even easier. because now they're used to this training process with you and things like that. And it really does start to be a snowball effect. Ultimately, the best spot you can get to is where you tell somebody, hey, map out the process you're doing. Give me some ideas on how to improve it, and then kind of turn them into a trainer and things like that. Then it really comes full circle with you. But it seems like such a marathon or the light at the end of the tunnel is so far down there when you're in that very front side. And I'm too busy to do this myself, let alone train somebody else. I just got to buckle down and work harder and do this, right, and push through it. And again, you got to pull back and delegate as soon as possible. Again, having the right people make that. I think that's key.

Sue: I think that the two thoughts that come to my mind immediately when hearing you say that is short-term pain for long-term gain and like you said too, trusting your people to now get you out of the way and get them doing it so you can move on to doing other things, which is exactly what I saw when you started hiring TJ who's phenomenal and as he's built his team, you letting TJ do what he's great at. And even though you're great at it too, you can move on to doing something else that needs to be done for the business.

Jesse: Yep. And it won't always go right. You know, the person may not do the training the right way or they may screw up the thing. That's part of it. But you're creating that program, right? For someone else to do next time and delegate. So yeah, worth the pain, worth the pain in the effort. So.

Sue: Yeah, and I think also your great attitude, you're very much, it doesn't have to be done exactly the way you might do it, it just has to get done well. And you're always very open to what is the best way of doing this? And it could be your way, or it could be somebody else's way, or it could be a combination of all the things. What's the best way to get this done?

Jesse: I think it's important as any kind of a leader, manager, owner, where you know, you want to assert yourself to say, no, it had, there might be five options, but this is the way it has to be done. Let's figure it out. That's okay. I appreciate you saying those things about me, Sue, because I like having that kind of organization where we can all be empowered to make decisions and figure things out so we don't get trapped in a little fiefdom here of just like one way to think about something. But anybody listening, if I'm maybe helping you get over the hump on delegating or training some people, definitely be adamant. If there is something you're very, very opinionated on, it has to be done a certain way, right? Or this is kind of one of our core beliefs. You shouldn't let go of that stuff, right? You don't have to completely just, you know, let the kids run the store, so to speak. But yeah, you have to be able to let go and let people figure some things out. You shouldn't accept less quality necessarily. but just know that's like an iterative process. First time somebody does a thing, they're maybe not going to be as good, right? So there's some spectrum in there, but got to get going on it. Otherwise it'll never happen.

Sue: That's a great point. Well, what do you see, what do you see your challenges as you've come from when you started to where you are now? And what are you the most proud of overcoming?

Jesse: I should have a hard time Sue not just underscoring the same thing. Uh, I think it's a perpetual battle of delegation, uh, continuing to evolve. Um, Bob, you and I've talked many times over the years, I'm paraphrasing, but like working yourself out of a job, right?

Bob: Yeah.

Jesse: Um, you have to push yourself forward. Um, continue to delegate, like whatever that is, there's always the next level up. Sue, I think for us here, you know, for me, like doing this show, doing this podcast. Bob for years, I think it was, was pushing to do something like this and never did, or it took forever to get off the ground. Same with our digital courses. If anybody that's listening that signed up for that like two years ago, coming soon, it's still coming soon. But there's always something else you should be working on really as a leader and as a manager in a business. And if you... stop and just get back into that Superman or Superwoman mode, just doing what you do all day every day and stop looking at the next thing and then figuring out how to delegate and free up. I think that that's a trap you fall in. And for me, I just, I can't think of anything else off hand, Sue. That would be a better answer then. That's the main thing to keep working on and focusing on. It may be a different thing for me to work on going forward than it was last year, last quarter. And maybe it's a different thing

Sue: Great.

Jesse: I need to delegate or move on. But It's still that same core process at the end of the day, right? Making sure you have good people, making sure you continue to delegate. And then I guess I'd extend that even further saying, making sure that process is neared on whoever the lieutenants in your business are, that they are continuing to delegate and level up and follow that same journey too. That's not something just a business owner should have the spirit of, right? Anybody who's critical in leadership positions in a company. should always be evolving, moving up, delegating, and then bringing their team up to really repeat the same. So I guess not to be too lazy about the answer, but that's also what I'd hang my hat on for being proud is that we do have a team that feels that way. I think most of the people in manager or leadership positions in our company, whether or not they think I'm an awesome person, you know, person to person. They do respect the organization, has this ability for mobility for them, for evolution. They don't feel like they're just stuck somewhere doing the same thing over and over, which is tricky for us. We're a completely remote company, just to be clear for anybody listening or watching. We're all around the United States and some international, completely remote. So that's great. I'm a big proponent of that, but there's also pitfalls to it, right? from a team building standpoint and things like that. So I think critical to having success in our organization or something like it is having that kind of attitude. Because if we lose the ability to just run down the hall, talk to each other, you know, shoot some hoops on lunch break, or just kind of have fun and do that kind of stuff, you have to make up for those things in other ways with the company. And we can't have people to be stagnant or feeling trapped because if you wake up, Like myself, I wake up, walk out of my room, grab a cup of coffee and take 17 steps later and you know, I'm at work. Um, if I don't like what I'm doing, if I'm not motivated or challenged by that, man, that can get monotonous and boring, right? Real quick. Um, and that doesn't move anybody forward. So I guess hanging my hat on that as something I'm proud of is that the company is thriving and successful being a remote company in this space and, um, that everybody seems to keep. following that same journey of leveling up, delegating and growing. So.

Sue: And I will also say that the work environment that you and Bob have created is very much one that once people, I'll say once the right people are in it, nobody wants to leave.

Jesse: Yeah, that's awesome.

Sue: For self-motivated people, it's a fantastic place to be.

Jesse: You know, when you bring up a thought to, I should mention quick, Sue, having the right people is important. Also identifying when people are not the right person is important as well. We've been fortunate to have a lot of great people join our team. And we've also had a lot of people that we've let go, right? Not that we're iron fist, you know, rulers and get the hell out of here. You don't fit our system. But part of having the processes. you know, in the workflows and things like that is that's clear what we expect. Um, the luxury of that is that's clear when things don't work out for somebody too, right?

Jesse: You have standards, you have expectations and the way we do things and somebody's not going to fall in line. Um, pretty darn visible and you can't be afraid to either pivot. Maybe sometimes I just need to do something else. Um, or, you know, cut that person loose and move on, uh, because it's a detriment amount detrimental. Not only to the task you're giving that person, if they're not the right fit, but also to the rest of your team that can clearly see this person is not working out. And they're left wondering, well, why am I working so damn hard, right?

Sue: Yeah.

Jesse: When this person isn't or screwing it up or whatever. So that's something too that we shouldn't forget as part of the process too, is identifying when people are rock stars, also identifying when they need to move on. So.

Sue: Good, really good. Well, you mentioned a few minutes ago how important it is for things not to be monotonous and boring. That's not a good way to think about starting your day every work day. And being in the field of websites and SEO, there's nothing monotonous and boring about that because it is constantly changing field. What still excites you about doing websites and SEO? Whether it's the process or the helping business end result, it is ever-changing. What do you like about that, not like about that, and what excites you?

Jesse: I think at its core, something that continues to make me very happy and get joy out of this as a job, a business and a career is, it's not too cheesy, but we're helping people at the end of the day, right? Um, we're not selling snake oil. We're not trying to scam people, right? There's no, there's no downside. If we're, if we're doing good at our job, uh, business is investing into us. Um, and they're getting back more money than they're giving us. Right. So sometimes it's maybe a little hard to, to get that money flowing on the front side, depending on a budget, but, um, we help people grow their business. Um, we've had many stories over the years of people, maybe they were ready to retire or sell their business. And after working with us for a while, uh, they breathe new life into it. Right. Um, they've, they've been able to accomplish some things personally that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to. That's where the tide rises for everybody, right? That's good for us. That's a client. They're paying our bills, you know, on our team so we can all make money and whatever they're giving us, they're getting it back exponentially by new customers that they're getting and everybody's happy except for the competitor that no longer is the top of Google. Right.

Sue: No, no.

Jesse: But that's not in our universe. So they can figure that out. But I think that is something that really does make it exciting is we're constantly creating. I myself personally, I like, I guess I have like a servant attitude, right? Um, like if, if my family, if I'm making dinner, right. Or if, if I'm having a cocktail, my wife and I, you know, it's not just throw it in a glass, like here you go. Right. It's always, I don't know, try to spice it up a little bit, right. Or present it good and kind of that impression of things. Something I always, uh, take joy in the ambiance, if you will. Right. Just how it comes across the company name. Swedish for impression, right? And that's because what we do is not only get people found, but we also want to make sure they have a good impression that people like the business they find. And that's kind of at the core of really what motivates us is getting people found, having their business be successful. And hopefully them passing that joy back to us saying, hey, thanks for the help, you know, you guys and gals rock too. Creating art, right? Creating things, sharing things really at the end of the day. For me, that's kind of what it still feels like. It makes it fun. So if you didn't like what you do, right, then it's work. Let's back to that quote again.

Sue: I think it's interesting. There are a lot of people who working in an area that is constantly changing and you don't know what the next change is going to be. I mean, think of the difference in when you're building websites way back when versus when you're building them now or even SEO. You could either be challenged by that and love it, or you could either be challenged by that and hate it. So it's interesting and great. And I think also a testament to you. being in this business and scaling and growing this business, you're willing to welcome and embrace the unknown and go with it and learn it and make it better.

Jesse: It's an awesome book. I would recommend to everybody. I mentioned earlier, like the Toyota Way, I think that was a very influential book for me for process thought, quality control, things like that. But then there's another book called The Infinite Game. I think that's the title of it. And it basically speaks to, right, in life and in a lot of businesses, well, actually, the book would argue every business, there's no clear winning and losing, right? It is infinite, constantly evolving. And... I think for me, that's a big, a big part of that is, yeah, you have to have the mindset that there's always a moving target. I think a really good example in that book that people can hopefully pull this out and apply is police and crime. Never going to stop it ever. Right. If we or the law enforcement community or even your local police shop ever think that they're just going to stop crime. That entire mindset is doomed for failure. They're never going to be able to achieve that. Their thought processes, their actions, if they're based on stopping crime, are never going to work. They're misguided. Instead, if they think crime will always exist, how do we mitigate it as much as possible, create some spaces for this, that, whatever, be responsive, like do the best job of serving and protecting while in the face of a constantly evolving criminal element. That law enforcement is going to be looked upon by their community better than the ones that are trying to just stop crime, because it's an infinite game. You will never stop crime. There will always be evil people. Whether you take away all the guns, knives, explosives, everything else, the human mind, that's still gonna be that criminal element there. So it's impossible in that example to have a finite plan, a finite game. There's no winner or loser. And that's in life, that's in business. Way more. than people realize. And so if we just accept our processes as constantly evolving, let voices and inputs kind of tweak them. Somebody still has to be in charge. Not a straight democracy and everything, right? Um, but having that infinite game mindset, I think is really important to be able to evolve and pivot as a business owner, as a leader, as a manager in a company, even, um, whether you're dealing with clients, you know, your own team or whatever it is, or in our case, Google. I mean, we have to be evolving. Google's always evolving its own algorithm and search results, right? So if we were stuck in a mindset of that finite game, we would have been doomed years ago. So.

Sue: Can't do that in this industry, that's for sure.

Jesse: Oh.

Sue: Wow. What advice do you have for business owners who would like to follow in your footsteps in whatever realm that their business is in and have a growth trajectory and a changing and unknown future going forward?

Jesse: It's cool man. I think. The mindset of it's okay to fail. I think it's Extremely important. Extremely important for people. Because if you look at a failure there was something. It's Edison and the light bulb, right? Didn't get it right…

Sue: That's great. That's right.

Jesse: …on the first one, but every failure teaches you a little bit about something. And don't take things too serious, you know? understand where things need formality and attention and rigor. But in general, make sure you're having fun with it. And that again goes back to whatever it is for your job, your career. Make sure you love it. It doesn't have to define you overall as a person. It should be a major part of who you are. Ideally, you're in a job or a career or a path where you kind of are working 24 seven mentally. It doesn't mean you're in front of the keyboard or turning a wrench 24 seven. Um, but if it's not always in the back of your mind, then I would argue you don't really, you don't truly love it or, or passionate about it. And if you're not, then you're not going to get the maximum return on what it is. You're putting your energy into every day, whether that means you want to go start your own business or discontinue working for somebody, um, which is completely fine, not everybody has to have their own business to be successful. Some people want. some kind of structure to operate within right and let their brain do what they're good at. But really just following a passion, making sure that you're satisfied, be happy. It's okay to fail. It's okay to take risks and chances. There's a quote I throw on Facebook every couple of years. If it makes you nervous, you're doing it right. I think the older we get, Bob and I have talked about this over the years, people that get comfortable and complacent kind of fall in this trap of the opposite of what I'm saying here for my answer on this question for you, Sue. They don't put themselves out there to make mistakes. They don't strive to learn more in advance and they just keep doing the same thing every day, forgetting that they're wasting like almost half of their day and their life effectively then doing what they don't like doing. I don't care how much money you make, you'll never be able to buy more time, right? So just liking what you're doing, having your life be something you're happy with. Don't be afraid to fail. If that means you quit your job right now and go start a different career, go do it. That's not wrong, that's your life. And you can do whatever you want to do on that path. And I think if people choose right, you'll be successful. Whatever that means for you, that's your own thing. Doesn't mean money, doesn't mean happiness, doesn't mean anything material even. I mean, it can, but it doesn't have to. There's people in the middle of Africa you know, hardly even shoes to their name that are going to wake up and be happier every day than a lot of people here with a million dollars. Right. So that is my thing really is to make sure you're just following what it is you want to do. Continue to learn again. I'll say it like for the fifth time in the last minute, don't be afraid to make mistakes as long as you're learning from them, analyzing them. And that's, it's part of you moving forward. And, uh, yeah, don't settle, keep reading, keep learning, right? Don't stay still. Whatever it is such a sights on it and get after it some

Sue: Like, I really like what you're saying. And one message that comes through to me is there are no quote unquote, shoulds. Like it's not, I should be doing this or I should have a million dollars or I should be happy. Happiness is what everybody individually defines it as, just like success in businesses or success in whatever they're doing. So I really, I really, really liked that. And that saying life begins. What is it? Life begins at the edge of your comfort zone, I think can also be changed to a successful business begins at the edge of the comfort zone as well. To be always looking at what can be better. Yeah.

Jesse: I tease my wife all the time and I mean this in the most positive sense when I say it, but she makes me uncomfortable, right? She's not complacent. She's not always happy with just either where we're at, what we're doing, what we have, and is a strong motivating factor in like just once I'm not reminding like, hey, you know, we can level up, right? Or you can do this thing or you can learn a new skill or a new hobby. I think it's important to just have that mindset. Naturally from yourself or the people you're surrounding with right again. I'll go back to Bob I've had a lot of good quotes from Bob over the years if you want to be a good golfer hang out with good golfers, right? You know and that I think applies here with how making fun of my wife Yeah, just Don't tread water, you know, no kudos like you said Sue, right? There's a quote we like I forget what it is, but it's basically like slide in sideways right at the end of your life like If you're old and frail and decrepit, that's not the time where you get to go do skydiving and things like use everything up that you have, right? And don't have any regrets, don't have any shouldas. If you wanted to start a business, start a business. If you wanted to change careers, change careers. If you want to like your job, well, start doing something that you like. I think if people just align themselves with everything that, in that sense, you can be successful. There's no quick switch that might take you 10 years. to turn that boat, right? To pivot where you want. Doesn't mean it's quick, but every day you waste not taking action is one day further you are from whatever that goal is. So if you don't know it, you can learn it, right? If you don't, if you're not in the position to be able to do the thing, change your position, I don't know. Not everybody. This won't resonate with everybody because not every situation out there, I'm sure there's examples of people that listen around and they're like, well, yeah, but what about... I'm in this spot where A, B, and C, and yeah, that's true. So I'm speaking extremely broadly here and with no timelines, but I think of people, yeah, just really, really focused on that as you're kind of guiding light. You're gonna be a good person, good things will happen to you, and keep your sights set on what you want and you should drop another book. The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday I think is also amazing. pretty quick and short. But instead of seeing that thing in front of you as the obstacle and well now I'm screwed. Like that's what you have to identify is how do I get around that thing now, right? How do I move that obstacle? That's the thing in front of me. My goal is behind it and I can't be fixated on my goal. The obstacle is the way and I gotta figure this thing out, right? I gotta learn something, I gotta move something, I gotta create something, whatever it is, so. I'll stop rambling on there before I throw more books out. This is turning into a Amazon book pitch fest.

Bob: Yeah.

Sue: That's great though. And I also love that you keep stressing, it's okay to fail. Cause I think if there's somebody who in conversation, whatever was saying like, I've never had a failure, I would disrespect them, even though they're probably saying it to be respected. Cause to me that says you didn't try anything that was risky enough that you didn't already know what to do. How exciting or fun or rewarding is that?

Bob: Yeah.

Jesse: But maybe like failure doesn't mean you like you screwed up and you made a huge mistake. This means something didn't work, right? And if you're not testing things in that sense, even right, you're never going to move forward. So, yeah.

Sue: That's right. That's great. All right, last question for you. What do you see for the future? Five years from now, three years from now, 10 years from now, we're sitting here talking about the 400th episode and your journey in it. Where are we?

Jesse: Yeah, I think Google's still around, much to people's dismay. It's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think from our business perspective, whether it's what we do at Intrycks or the show Local SEO Tactics, I feel strong that search marketing itself is going to be around. SEO will change. We're right now on the whole bleeding edge of AI, how that's being used in a lot. of different scenarios. But at the end of the day, us as human beings, this is the transactions, right? We want things, so we have to go look for things to buy a product or a service or to get help or to learn things. Back in the day, we had encyclopedias, like gigantic shelves of books with all this information. Right now we have it all on Google, on computers. There will always be these repositories of information. And then we as humans will always be needing to go search for, find, learn, you know, to kind of connect these dots between what we do or don't have and what we want and what we've got to get and learn. Our job at our business is to help connect those things. Right. So if people aren't going to Google, if they're going to Facebook, you know, or if they're going to some to be mentioned website, that doesn't even exist today. At the end of the day, our job is to make sure. Businesses are found when people are looking for the products and services they sell. Right now most of that work happens in Google. That may change later. We'll still be in this doing what we're doing, helping people get found in search and making that as efficient as possible. I feel strong about that. There's a meme slash joke that goes around SEO every 6 or 12 months. SEO is dead. Whenever there's some big thing, you know. Chat GPT right? That's the end of search. It's all chat GPT. You know, that's not true. Um, it has its place, but there's still a lot of tentacles out there. So I think for the future, yeah, we'll be in search marketing. Uh, it won't look like it does now. Um, but it won't be completely foreign to us either, right? That's just this slow constant evolution. If we speaking of chat GPT, if we don't use tools like that, if we don't get on board with them and see how they could be used, both from a consumer side and from a business marketing side, then we will be left behind. So we have to continue to evolve, do the things we're talking, learn more, try experiment. But I can't see a future where search marketing is not out there. And really, I mean, as long as there's sales and marketing and human beings, search marketing is just kind of inherently, you know, part of what's happening now. Right. So that'll be our job. Worst case scenario, I guess if I'm completely wrong and we play this back in four years and it doesn't age well, I guess Bob, we can always get back to cold calling, right? Knockin' on doors, so that skill's not going anywhere.

Bob: Sure. Get ‘er done.

Jesse: We'll have that. No, I think, does that answer your question, Sue?

Sue: Yeah, I think that's great.

Jesse: Sometimes I ramble and I'm like, what was the root question and did I actually answer it?

Sue: I think that's great. And before…

Bob: And I got a couple of rapid fire questions for you, Jesse, when you're done soon.

Sue: Now, I was just going to say before we close, Bob, as Jesse's mentor, partner, leader, teacher, collaborator, and all of the above, I'd love to hear some of the questions you have.

Bob: Well, and Jesse self-taught and part of, again, his superpowers is the creatives, you know, where he's always, you know, I think, you know, we both agree, like, we're on this earth to create, innovate, serve, and not always in that order. Sometimes you have to start out just serving, right? You have to be the waitress until you can make it to Broadway or whatever the case is. But you develop the skill of serving. And then you create. And then I think we're at a point in our lives where we're serving the creatives, which is fun, right? And those creatives typically are our own staff, obviously, and then other businesses. Because in most cases, nothing gets done until something. gets created. The questions I have for you, Jess, and we've always, your father's taught you this, and we've heard it all over the place, is you are the sum of the five most influential people that you hang out with. What, now we're in a different era. So if this was 50 years ago, we might go hang out with, if we're going to be financial planners. In other words, we'd go intern or even work for Warren Buffett for free and just sit at his feet and get his coffee and do whatever, just to get any knowledge we could from the man and or certain women or whatever the case is. But we're in a different era. We're in an era of, you know, information. We have access to everything. So we can sit at the feet of anybody. And so we can do that through these mediums of podcast. in books, what in your mind or your top podcast that you listen to. And if we broke it down into tactical business and or motivational, and then what same, same likeness, two or three books that are top two or three books in your mind that have, you know, influenced you the most.

Jesse: Yeah. Oh, good stuff. Um, you know, podcasts for me, I feel like I'm cyclical. It's kind of like what, what topics do I want to be learning about today? Right. Or this week or whatever. Um, one of the mainstays, there's two of them. Don't judge me. Uh, the first one's good. Uh, Tim Ferris, um, if, if I'm not even like thinking about a thing I want to learn or seek out and I just want to like have something on while I'm farting around in the garage or doing a project, whatever. Don't even have to look at who's on it, like pop on a Tim Ferriss episode and you're gonna learn something, right? Whether it applies to your business, your personal life or whatever. I just think he does a great interview. His guests are top notch. He's one of the biggest podcasts out there, period, right? And it all, I shouldn't say it like that. Pretty much every episode, like hits me in some kind of positive way here, right? Um, they're entertaining, you know, um, kind of bubble gum for your, your mind a little bit, but if you're paying attention, you're gleaning something successful, kind of from that, that Warren Buffett type mentality, right? There's something here, business or personal, um, that you should be able to glean. Always a rock star, um, episode. Um, I also like Joe Rogan podcast to different end of the spectrum, maybe.

Bob: Yeah.

Jesse: Um, also huge though, right from who he brings on the things they get into. Both of these are a little bit more long form, just kind of easy to have on in the background. And you'll always learn something on the Joe Rogan podcast. Just a different drawer in your toolbox where that thing is gonna go though. So I was like that. Then there's a lot that are like those two I could just throw on anytime, right? But then I have a ton of them that are in there. Like if I really wanna get, you know, SEO marketing, you know, there's a few podcasts to throw on. Um, influential, um, I would say some of the biggest ones like Pat Flynn, you know, going back a number of years, I probably haven't listened to a current Pat Flynn episode in 10 or 12 months to be transparent, but I tell you what, of any show I've ever listened to. And I know you're, you know, nodding your head here and probably feel the same. Like huge, um, Pat Flynn's power of podcasting, right. Took his course on launching the show, right. Um…

Bob: Right.

Jesse: …you and I did that. So. I would say that's historically one of the biggest ones. Don Miller story brand, huge for just a crash course, right? And better marketing, better storytelling. Big one there. So that's a few podcasts. Like I said, those last two are more very specific from learning a skillset or a trait. Books, I've threw out a few already. I do think Toyota Way is an amazing book for anybody who is following process, quality control, things like that. Maybe a little bit outdated now, but good to great. Is it Tim Collins, if I'm getting his name right?

Sue: Jim.

Jesse: Amazing book. Okay, thank you. Amazing book. Kind of in that same vein of toyed away about running a business, being efficient, quality control. I always thought that one really resonated with me though for trying to be really good at a smaller number of things and be world-class at them or great at them in this case for the book. And so being, instead of being good at a number of things, right, being great at a smaller number of things and how that it comply to your business, your team. I think a lot of that goes back to the training and the stuff we were talking. Extremely important book there for me. The As a Man Thinketh, I think. I'm trying to remember his dang name. Shorter one, but amazing. Amazing book as well, all about mindset, right? And getting yourself in that space. Made me think of this earlier, Who Moved My Cheese? is a book I know about we pass around with managers and stuff back in the day. And then another super short one, but again, speaking towards, you know, evolution change and being okay with it, not being just set in your ways. Um, gosh, I could go through a bunch of other books, but that I'd say again, that Ryan holiday, the obstacles, the way, or, or things in general with Ryan holiday, very stoic, uh, I am a religious man. Um, and my family is as well. So when I throw stoicism out there, I wouldn't, that's not my religion. But I think it goes in parallel with it for, you know, how to look at things quite a bit. And he's got some great things to say in that space that are very relatable, pulling back from some, you know, Marcus Aurelius, a lot of stoic type stuff that he'll get into. That makes it makes it more accessible for all of us nowadays. So yeah, I think. I think those are some of the big ones, Bob, coming to mind. I probably should have had a better list thinking about this in the future for some of the ones that I know have made a big impact on me. I've always got a few sitting back here, but yeah, if there is any more, maybe we'll try to throw some links in the show notes for this. I'll take some time and try to think about a few more for everybody. And the reason I'm saying that to underscore, Bob, I appreciate your questions, just because again, the spirit of this, it's all self-taught, right? Like you gotta go seek the stuff out and learn it. These weren't assignments from a class or some kind of night school. It's like you got to level up and learn, learn a skill, learn a thing, learn trait, self help or a technical thing you didn't know how to do that. Now you do right. Cause you went through a book. Um, I think we all have to keep listening and reading. And two, when I say little, little disclaimer, whenever I say read a book, there's a chance I might have listened to it as well. I won't I won't say listen to a book because that just sounds funny to everybody, but I'm a huge Amazon audible audio book guy as well. So just to be transparent.

Bob: Yeah. Oh, however you got to get it in your head, right? At the end of the day, I think you can start out dead broke. And if you're investing in a book, which you can get from a library for free, you know, over the course of years, and you're consistently doing that, I don't see how you're not going to rise above whatever situation. It's not going to happen overnight, but I just failed to understand for at least four years on the road, you're not in a much better place.

Jesse: Knowledge is power. I mean, really, you really only know whatever you put into your own brain. And Bob, Sue, myself, all three of us, we're three human beings sitting here. We all have the same potential. You know what I mean? We all learn the same things and read the same things and amass the same knowledge. It's our choice, you know, person to person, what we wanna do with it. And that's what will separate people, right?

Bob: You bet, you bet. Indeed, good stuff.

Jesse: It's learning. So.

Sue: All right, Bob, so I have to ask, because you've had a lot of history with Jesse, and anything surprising, shocking, any little maybe embarrassing incidents that you have that you'd like to share that are still above board?

Bob: There's a lot of Jesse-isms that I should have written down because there's just a lot of them that are really good. But basically part of the reason Jesse was always exceptional, but part of the reason I would say for sure is his wife's, part of the reason he has the success he has. Strong Swedish background woman. I mean, she's... couple of generations Swedish type of deal, but, um, it's great family guy. Um, his, his kids are incredible and. He definitely has a life partner that, you know, supports him and has without her, I don't think he'd be, he'd be, don't get me wrong. He'd be relatively successful, but certainly not, not where he is today. So, and that's a huge blessing, uh, for him and, and the two of them work well together. So. And that's, and she came up with the name of Intrycks, right?

Jesse: I'll take some credit.

Bob: So, you  know, it just goes to show you that. Yeah. But I mean, it's, it's one of those things where, um, I think Jesse would agree. I mean, that's where, that's why he is where he is today.

Sue:  Awesome.

Bob: So in, in great, uh, parents and, um, and that that's huge to, to get to, to where he is today. So. Yeah, I have embarrassing stuff on Jesse, but that's why he pays me good money on the side to keep that keep that quiet.

Sue: That's right, that's right.

Jesse: And for anybody listening to this, we have post-production. So even if Bob did share stuff, we completely edited it out there and you're never gonna know about it.

Sue: Hahaha!

Bob: Wow.

Sue: Great, it's great. Well.

Jesse:  No, I remember this was back probably Sue, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, I had some kind of work anniversary, Bob at IOT and you guys surprised me with a little party and had a t-shirt made up. You're saying Jesse-isms?

Bob: Yeah.

Jesse: Like literally made me think of that. This T-shirt had like my big stupid picture on the front, right? It looked horrible. But then it had all these phrases that apparently I say that I never realized I say. And I just I'm chuckling as Bob is saying, Jesse isms, because I think all of us, we have phrases and just little quirks that you don't know until you know. And you start reading the back of a T-shirt like I do. I see that shit all the time. Don't I?

Bob: Right.

Jesse: Like, this is kind of weird. Yeah, I'm sure there's a bunch of that out there.

Bob: Yeah, I think we all do. It's just we don't realize it right, you know.

Jesse: Right? This is episode 200.

Sue: That's funny.

Jesse: I bet there's people listening to all three of us right now that are like, yeah, you all have your own isms that, that I picked up on.

Bob: I'm gonna go.

Sue: Right.

Jesse: So.

Sue: Well, Bob, if you had any extra of those T-shirts, you could probably command a lot of money selling those online, right?

Bob: Yeah, yeah, no doubt, no doubt.

Sue: For all the Jesse fans out there.

Bob: Yeah.

Jesse: Right.

Sue:  Well, Jesse, I can speaking on behalf of all of us at Intrycks, you are a great leader and a great teacher and great open-minded and between you and Bob, really just so happy and glad to be part of this ship, knowing that it's going in the right direction. And for all of us here who also really love helping businesses grow. Thank you for everything that you've done and everything that you're doing, both of you to keep us on track and going forward.

Jesse: Oh, thanks.

Bob: Thanks, Sue.

Sue: I'll just say the quote of the day again, and then yeah, Jesse, then you can close. It's not the strongest species that survived nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change. Charles Darwin and both of you have been living that, breathing that, and passing that on to all of us who work with you for as long as you've been in business.

Jesse: Well, I think that's perfect, Sue. We can wrap it up. This one got a little bit long too, just the nature of the conversation. So I don't think anything more needs to be said. I appreciate the questions from both of you letting me talk a little bit. This was fun to kind of turn it inside out for me a little bit this episode. Hopefully everybody listening, there's something you learned, if nothing else, a new podcast to check out or maybe a new book to go pick up and learn a few things. But yeah, appreciate you checking out this episode number 200. Kind of a good milestone. We're happy to be doing this show and many more to come. Thanks for checking this episode out and we'll catch you in the next one, everybody. Take care.

Bob: See you guys.

Sue: See ya.